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"Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by MarlieK, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. MarlieK Member

    "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    So who are L. Ron Hubbard's decedents? It sounds like if the cult doesn't fall soon, they can get the copyrights back in their name & can the cult or make a huge payday for themselves. I wouldn't settle for anything less than 300 million dollars.

    Also, recall all of the 'updated' texts are claimed to be the original squirreled writings of L. Ron Hubbard. For the cult to claim otherwise admits that little Davey squirreled the tech.

    Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries | Epicenter | Wired.com

    This is who I know of right now:
    * Diana Hubbard (daughter, in & out, controlled by the Estate)
    * Nibs (won't talk about it) - Passed on in 1991. Jamie Kennedy (grandson?)
    * Suzette (daughter)
    * Arthur (son) Out, did auditing in the '90's
  2. LE Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    GREAT FOOKING WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  3. LE Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    I say we contact them & notify them of this huge payday coming their way & advise them to get a good copyright lawyer to represent their interests. The COS will pay & pay big to retain copyrights.

    * Dianetics
    * All the books
    * All the Tech
    * All the Hubbard policy letters
    * All the tapes
    * All his fiction
    * The Way To Happiness
    * WISE businesses

    Absolutely EVERYTHING the cult is based on. Even if one of them decides to grab or cash out 1/4th of the material the scilons will still be hurting.

    Personally, I think it would be best if they negotiated book by book
  4. Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Right, so we need to know what rights where sold to who at what time, is there an official register for this in the US?

    I'm not savvy in US copyright law, but I do know how much Scientology relies on copyrights in their ability to work the way they do.

    Imagine standing right next to the scifags trying to sell their shitty books, and then be able to legally distribute CD's with the same book + critical information on it :)
  5. MarlieK Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    I am not a lawyer & the people who will have the rights to these copyrighted works probably wouldn't be able to afford the lawyers to get the job done just to sit on the works.

    I think the best they can do is to milk the COS for as much as they can because they really do have Scientology by the balls on this one.

    Here is the copyright laws:
    http://www.copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf

    All I know is that if the recording industry is shitting bricks then so will scientology.

    As an added perk, these descendants of L Ron Hubbard, can't legally sign away their future rights until the date passes where these rights are passed back on to them. So foreplay from the COS won't apply.

    Again, IANAL, but I would love to see a legal analysis of this situation.
  6. anon.il Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Question is, when did the 'artist' in question sell the rights to his stuff to the CoS? Was it a little before he passed away or before hence?

    If it was the date of his passing, that'd be 1986 which would put the effective date at 2021. Not too soon but not too far either.
  7. whosit Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    I might be incorrect but I think that this is will not work. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable OG will speak up. IIRC there was a big push in the early 80's to update all of the copyrights for Hubbard's writings and recordings. Going so far as to copyright stuff that he had never actually put a copyright on in the first place (and should have been in the public domain to begin with but that's another issue altogether).

    Then Hubbard died. Amazingly, the day before he died he decided to change his will and give everything to the Church and pretty much screwed his family.

    Then the 90's came along and Sonny Bono, who might or might not have been a scifag, helped out with the affectionately know Mickey Mouse Bill.
  8. LE Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Realistically I think this is meaningless. The ones who are still in are not likely at all to try to get the copyrights back. Possibly the ones who are out have some rights in this situation; I don't know what happens when there are numerous descendants. Maybe Jamie would pursue it, but it would result in a huge legal battle and he probably isn't up for that.

    Question: Is it descendants or just heirs who can try to get the rights back?
  9. FUCK Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Interesting concept.
  10. WTF Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    There was some money changing hands way back when--the family members getting the short end of teh stick of course.

    It is possible that they signed away rights back then (for a pittance or under duress or hidden in dox they did not read).



    The original conveyance may have been forged/fraudulent too.
  11. greebly Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Get in touch with the relevant parties.
    the copyright woud normally be shared amoung family member unless any further wills were made in relation to thier estates.

    in the uk estates can go quite far along a family tree to the 6th cousin as as i remember.


    any legal battle should be fought perhaps find a firm willing to accept some no win no fee scenario as this would be a huge high profile case and worth more publicity wise.

    I think some material could be free and perhaps other shared royalties depending on where this material was generated and which entity owns which parts.


    Awesome win if it plays out.
  12. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Of course it would be a payday if they sold the copyright back to the cult.

    But they need to be informed ASAP to avoid being screwed over by the deal. and Maybe they could even take a stand against the cult and keep control of the copyright, and force change in the cult as part of the agreement.
  13. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Sorry chaps, but you are all barking up the wrong tree.

    If you did some digging, you'd find that L Ron Hubbard is NOT listed as the author and copyright holder of the majority of Scientology publications - including Dianetics.

    In fact, you'd find that the L Ron Hubbard bit is actually part of the book title (I kid you not)

    The copyright to virtually everything is owned by RTC - which you'll see if you look inside any book / lecture.
  14. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    I am not saying I understand the legality of the coprright law going into effect. But what you are saying is correct on many of the works after LRH died.

    LRH's highly controversial will left his writtings to the RTC but what it appears from the article is that the families of people who sold their copyrights (don't know if that applies in this case) can get the copyright back after a certain period of time from the current owner. So just saying that RTC owns the copyright now does not make this a non-issue, any more than the info suggests that it could apply.
  15. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Duh? Fail!

    That's exactly the point - A copyright transferred by an artist or author (eg: LRH) to another party (eg: RTC) can be 'forcibly' returned to the decendents of the artist or author!

    Also, per some other comment above - you don't put copyright onto things - nothing is 'public domain' unless the copyright holder or the law (eg: elapsed time, nature of some legal documents etc) declares it to 'public domain'. All creative work comes into existence with copyright in most countries - but it is good practice for authors or other defacto copyright holders to publically ASSERT copyright, basically setting out their legal claim to be the sole holder of the copyright.

    This sounds like a very solid tactic - certainly news generating - but prob needs a good copyright lawyer to do it free (or deferred fees on success) for the publicity they would gain for the firm.
  16. Ironhead Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    bumping thread

    Jamie kenedy has denounced lrh as a conman. he would tear the church down to the ground.
  17. fisherman Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    The key word here may be "heirs" which is not necessarily 'family members'.

    I believe the copyright laws attempt to protect an author and their immediate heirs, but are not intended to create an exclusivity that can be handed down over many generations. We need a 'lawfag' to clarify this.

  18. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Somebody should tell him that he and / or members of his family might be getting asked to sign something.

    Contact info:
    Jamie DeWolf on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

    I know I should do it but I am not going to sign up for a myspace account to potentially make somebody else rich over a situation that I don't understand.
  19. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Seeing that the cult is classed as a religion state side
    Would the rtc not use the religious cloak as they always do as a legal defence against this type of move from relatives (if it happens) ?
    still though good find from the op
  20. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    I don't think it works that way. I don't see what being a religion has to do with anything. Anyone can start a religion, but there are hoops you have to go thru to get your religion tax exemptions. Laws apply to everyone equally.
  21. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Well what ever happens the rtc would use every nasty trick they have
  22. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    With copyright on religious works it is not always clear who the rights' holder is. Under the provisions of the Berne convention, copyright is granted to the author on creation of the work. Several religions claim that (some of) their works were authored (written or dictated) by their god or gods.

    Many Christians, for instance, believe that the Bible is literally the word of God. Many editions of the Bible are under copyright due to their unique edition or translation.

    The founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith, claimed that an age old Book of Mormon contains the religious and secular history of ancient civilizations in the Americas.

    In 1991 the Urantia Foundation held a copyright to The Urantia Book. They sued Kristen Maaherra for reproducing parts of the book unauthorized. According to the Foundation's representatives, the Papers of The Urantia Book were dictated by celestial, unseen cosmic beings to an unidentified sleeping subject (a human being) and they, The Urantia Foundation held the copyright in trust of keeping the text "inviolate".

    In resolving Urantia Foundation v. Maaherra, the court said that "We agree with [the defendant], however, that it is not creations of divine beings that the copyright laws were intended to protect, and that in this case some element of human creativity must have occurred in order for the Book to be copyrightable. At the very least, for a worldly entity to be guilty of copyright infringement, that entity must have copied something created by another worldly entity."

    Maaherra lost the case at this level, on the argument that the members of the receiving group had been given an original direction to the writings by selecting and formulating their questions, thus fulfilling the obligation of creative effort required to gain a copyright under U.S. law. This was later overturned on the grounds that the Urantia Foundation was not the author, and that the sleeping subject, sometimes highly controversially called a channeler, was legally considered the author, and that the Urantia Foundation thus could not file a valid copyright renewal.

    A similar case arose when the copyright owners of A Course in Miracles sued New Christian Church of Full Endeavor for distributing A Course in Miracles. The court ruled that the copyright on the manuscripts was violated, and wrote, quoting from the above case:

    "In a case similar to this one, the Ninth Circuit recently held that, notwithstanding a spiritual book's "celestial" or "divine" origins, the originality requirement necessary for a valid copyright was satisfied because the human beings who "compiled, selected, coordinated, and arranged" the book did so "'in such a way that the resulting work as a whole constitutes an original work of authorship.'" Urantia Found. v. Maaherra, 114 F.3d 955, 958 (9th Cir. 1997) ("Urantia") (quoting 17 U.S.C. § 101)."

    However, in the final judgement, copyright on the published text was not upheld, because it was published without a proper copyright notice, which was required under US law at the time.

    In the United Kingdom, the King James Version of the Bible is covered by a crown copyright.

    Copyright law can clash with the evangelization work of a church. Probably the best known instance of this is the case of the secret religious writings of the Church of Scientology. Since late 1994, Scientology has used various legal tactics to stop the distribution of these documents written by its founder, L. Ron Hubbard. The church claims these documents may only be read by followers who have reached a state of so-called "clear," although critics hint that the enormous sums of money followers must pay to be able to read these documents could provide another reason as to why the church is so secretive.

    Freedom of religion
    The commercial rights granted by copyright law do not infringe on freedom of religion. They grant an entity, either the author or a publisher, a right to derive commercial benefit from a text, and some countries grant the author additional rights to control the integrity of the text. They do not control what some other individual believes about that text, nor forbid access to that text.

    On the other hand, copyright laws can be used as leverage by the owner, and if that owner is a religious organization, they will naturally attempt to control their assets. This can lead to problems, as seen above, if a dissenter also wants to promulgate their own vision of the text.

    However, despite the creep up of copyright terms, all copyrights are finite in duration. This means that eventually all texts will become public domain somewhere. So at that point anyone will be able to do what they wish with that text.

    The original text of ancient books, such as the Bible, Rig Veda, etc. predate any copyright laws. However, translations of that text may be recent enough to fall under copyright law, and commentary or cross-notes added to the text may be copyrighted. Of course that copyright will belong to the person, persons, or organization that translated or added material to the text, not God (or any particular god or gods).

    Another issue is which version of the text one might want to use. For instance, there are numerous variations in the text of the Bible, as the canonical text has been preserved through a set of manuscripts, each with minor variations. This means that any critical edition of the Bible will reflect a huge number of decisions on the part of the editor, which rises to the level of 'creativity' which copyright law demands.

    In most countries, fair use is intended to permit sufficient quotation from the original work as needed for commentary or criticism.

    TL:DR ;)
  23. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    None of which is relevant here - because the religion itself asserts that LRH was the author. Any 'divinity' involved, is credited to divinity which itself is credited to LRH.

    So even any 'religious text' arguments from above appear moot.
  24. Magoo Member

    Re: "Copyright Time Bomb Set to Disrupt Music, Publishing Industries"

    Qn - where did LRH reside during the authoring of the most 'valuable' works? California?

    I've been looking at IP trade journals, and they seem to be very much US State based - also, how much stuff was created during the Saint Hill years? I suspect the bulk of the 'good' stuff was already written before he went all waterworld?

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