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Concrete Results - Working On The End Game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Andy Downs, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. Andy Downs Member

    I was talking to an online friend of mine the other night. They were disheartened by being involved with the activists who do nothing but post and repost, tweet and retweet, "LIKE" etc etc

    Their point was nothing changes so why do it.

    While I get the frustration, this is exactly what the US Government would love along with big corporations. It is why real terrorists can win, they don;t own many wrist watches (let's not get too literal here, I am sure many terrorists have watches somewhere)

    However my point is those who stay the course and disregard how long something is taking will lose.

    In my humble opinion we need to set concrete goals for change. Not a "Grand Bargain" of sorts, but start breaking this down into smaller battles that could add up to winning the war.

    It is why I thought of, and posted: How Detroit Could Be A Game Changer
    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/how-detroit-could-become-a-game-changer.115585/

    We all want corporate corruption to end and the NSA to give back the internet along with our right to privacy. The question them becomes, how do we specifically get there?

    SOPA was a win. The USA Freedom Act is less sure.

    We need a series of wins to build momentum and keep the believers in the fray and add to them as we go along.

    When you read the Gene Sharp Books it talks a great deal about small things to do that add up to a win. But most importantly it talks about what you need to have in place, at least some plan, of what to do after you accomplish your goal.

    The example in from Dictatorship to Democracy is you don;t want to destroy your government, you want to change it. To do that you have to have a plan so that chaos doesn't ensue and all that was fought for is lost to the next jackass (not a direct quote)

    So I would like to discuss what specific goals do we have, and come up with a series of battles we can undertake to achieve those goals (in a legal and peaceful means)

    Thoughts...or do you think I am out of my mind?
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Watcher Member

    When I think about stopping corporate corruption and civil rights issues, I like to work backwards and try and locate the core issue. In the United States anyways.

    Corporate corruption seems to be a result of deregulating and the repealing of laws like the Glass-Steagall act. Allowing investment banks access to the peoples money not just the investment banks money. People lost half their life savings. 401k plans replaced pensions and again people lost a big percentage of their savings because it gets invested in the stock markets. Now they want to privatize social security which may end up the same way. They want to deregulate the EPA as well. If the powers that be can't be trusted when our "money" was deregulated how can they be trusted to look out for the environment and put that above profit margins. We don't hold the law breakers accountable so they just keep doing it. If a corporation is too big to fail and too big to go to jail, it's too big to exist.

    The NSA situation is a result of the Patriot Act and years and years of keeping us in fear. According to them we should be willing to give up civil rights so they can keep us safe. Even though we have a greater chance of being hit by lightning than hurt in a terrorist attack. And their foreign policies create more terrorist for us to deal with in the future.

    IMO the way to combat this is through electing officials that don't preach "We need to deregulate!" or "We need more drones and defense spending" We don't need a smaller government. We need a more efficient and caring government. Loyal to the people and the constitution rather than political parties and contributions. Willing to enforce laws already in place. Problem with that is all the steps they take to keep themselves in power. Knowing that the people think they are doing a terrible job and would probably vote them out, they redistrict and pass voter registration bills so they can keep those seats. And they spend millions of dollars on their campaigns. Not to mention the millions spent by the superpacs.

    So how do we get better leaders is the next question.

    The one problem I saw with the Occupy movement was, we were protesting too many things at once. It made sense to us but not the people watching. It might be easier for them if we focused on a couple issues at a time. Ending the superpac reign and over turning the courts ruling, that corporations are people and money is free speech, is where I would suggest starting. This seems to be the core issue. Take the massive amount of biased money out of politics. Then we may be able to get some moral leaders. If we can get that done fixing the other issues may be a lot easier. Just my opinion anyways. Slam away :p
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Indeed.

    The core issues are deep. The ruling that set up one of our greatest desecrations of human status: corporate personhood, probably didn't form in a legal bubble. The motto of Manifest Destiny established us as a nation of pirates, as Mark Twain rightfully pointed out.

    As for the NSA, etc, as recently as 1979, there is evidence of a fledgling security state using many of the same tricks. After a couple of congressional hearings (Church and Assassinations) and passing some fangless laws they swore up and down that that sort of thing would stop and could never happen again. But they kept it up, and now they are just more blatant about it.

    IMO Where to start? Information is a good place to begin. Getting computers and internet access to whatever can feasibly constitute 100% of people who want them. Sure, most of them are just gonna watch porn. But a few may start looking around. Many people have e-mail accounts, etc via their phone. But a phone, or even a library use for an hour a day, is not conducive to a) the kind of internet surfing that brings one in contact with varied viewpoints and news of the outside world nor b) the kind of self-awareness of skill and creativity that is needed for personal and global evolution.

    My first class of the day is using office software. There are several students in my class without experience or computers at home to work on and the class is a struggle for them. One of them is this lady a bit younger than I. She's got health issues and is pretty poor, but she's there every day. We had to do a powerpoint presentation. Most of us just did something irrelevant. Hers was technically naive but stood out from the class in being editorial, her own personal view which was well-researched and emotionally heartfelt. I think there are still forces untapped in this world and intelligent voices not heard. Information should be free and everyone should be able to participate.
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Andy Downs Member

    That is a great story.
    Core issues, small but multiple wins....then attack big
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Watcher Member

    I haven't been able to confirm this yet, Been a couple years now. But when I went down to my local DOV to get a new drivers license I ended up meeting a person going to school learning some justice course. Can't remember what she called it. The main thing I remember is her telling me how her teach was still in the justice department in some capacity, and that they used the drivers license photos for a data base to be used for facial recognition. Probably working with the FBI here. Derail?

    What I really wanted to say was...what's wrong with porn? :p
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Andy Downs Member

  7. Andy Downs Member

    That is a great point....what is wrong with porn.

    The photo stuff is good also
  8. Andy Downs Member

    Gene Sharp interview:

    http://www.utne.com/politics/gene-sharp-interview-power-of-nonviolence.aspx?PageId=1

    So going back to the DMV photos, the questions might be
    1. Who allows the info to be passed onto these companies?
    2. Was a bill passed and if so who were the sponsors of the bill?
    3. Connect the financial dots to the money grubbing politician who got the deal done
    4. How do you pressure those financial interests for the benefit of good, and their own end?
  9. Andy Downs Member

  10. Nothing at all. Even chimps prefer it, apparently.

    If we all watched porn maybe we wouldn't have to time to fight.

    Interesting about the licenses.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Watcher Member

    Every state requires a pictured license so the info is already there. It's just a matter of transferring the information to a central location. From there, for instance, all they'd have to do is get a facial picture or a protestor, drop that in the database, and boom protestor identified.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Andy Downs Member

    Very true....but who financially benefits?
    • When we know that we have the first target.
    • Once we have the first target, we identify their weak points
    • With weak points identified, then strategy
    • The strategy has to have a clear goal in mind
    • That goal has to be VERY clear, identifiable and verifiable as to the success or failure of the OP
    • So then we know what is happening, what do we want to change about it? End it? Alter it? Get something on a voter ballot to allow the people to decide, then campaign for it? Someone fired or out of office?
    • Then execute and attack (in a non-violent legal way)
  13. Watcher Member

    I haven't yet been able to confirm it's happening much less who benefits financially. Seeing as they already have those pictures and seeing the NSA tactics, I can't imagine they wouldn't think to use the pictures in this way.

    I still think the political contribution reform is the most important thing to target. From there we might actually be able to elect some allies into office.
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Incredulicide Member

    I think closed tech and a lack of education about opening things up and seeing what's inside is something worth targeting.

    Teach an open exchange that not only allows interaction over the Web, but through the Web:
    Don’t Defend Open. Question Closed
    Mozilla reflects the relational elements of an open source project: enabling, contributing, supporting and sharing knowledge, and are making it more accessible with a $25 phone and providing tools like the Ringleader add-on to test a proposed Plug'n'Hack security standard.

    Wikimedia plan to do a joint "Hack Day" event at the London Mozilla Space: these are places where the open-source, open-standards, education and makers community will meet and collaborate.

    Hackers will find that any closed source software they buy may be illegal to hack, even if it's just to check for themselves that it's secure enough to run on their own computer. This is because many of the things that you purchase may come with Copyright and a contract as an End User License Agreement (EULA) that says you can't. And you agree to it when you open or install the product, even if you can't read it or find out about it after you've opened or installed the product. Yes, that's sneaky and unfair.

    Education is open. It can be legally hacked to teach kids to think openly, be inspired, be curious, and thus, to be a hacker. What hacking is really about is taking control of something if you don't like how it works. Why would you do this? To have the freedom to make something you own do what you want. And to keep others from changing something you own back to the original form or copying all your ideas, drawings, writings, and pictures to a cloud somewhere to be controlled by someone else who claims it's for your "best interest."

    Schools and educators who read this and want to teach their students to hack, and what hacking can be, need to be aware upfront that it won't be easy. There will be resistance from closed minds. School administrations may also need to contend with the fact that hacking some things may be illegal in their state, and they will need to get open source hardware and software to try to stay on the legal side of things. When teaching students how to hack and what hacking is, it can be hard to do with words. Try experiences and putting it into practice to really get your point across.

    Free, open projects like Hacker Highschool can help kids develop the skills, feeling, and intuition through practice with support so they don't break the wrong things. The possibility of breaking something is simply part of the process, and should not be a factor keeping teachers and schools from teaching hacking. They should provide that support with an open source and open minded effort.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Watcher Member



    I don't support or oppose this yet. Not enough information at this time but some very interesting ideas. At this point I just wanted to share this and see what others think.
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Andy Downs Member

  17. Andy Downs Member

    This is interesting from some of the ideas proposed....though more than a little short on details.
    The biggest issue I see is not the idea, it is the strategy to implement the ideas.
    That is where I get back on my Gene Sharp soap box
  18. Andy Downs Member

  19. Andy Downs Member

    One of my suggestions on another thread was for us to start reaching out to law enforcement.
    Unlike most groups out there under government control, they are going to be the ones who show up to arrest us.

    The irony of them taking orders without thought to consequence or legality is amusing if it were not so serious.
    Unlike federal agencies (FBI, ATF, DHS, etc) police generally live in and are from the communities they police.
    When you look at the make up of most any FBI office these days you will find people (not support staff but actual sworn agents) who are not from the community they are supposed to serve. I learned this in my research on 58 November. Most agents through their careers have been to at least 5 cities.
    What are the ramifications of this ever moving staff?
    They have no connection with the people they serve, therefore carrying out orders they would not in their hometown is a lot easier. They are no more familiar with the people in the area they are stationed that US troops going to Iraq. We know what abuses have happen there.

    Well I submit the same thing applies to the federal agencies and their badged employees.

    Now let;s look at the local police and Sheriff. These people are generally born around and have connections to the community they are supposed to serve.
    That means because that connection exists, it can be used to have a dialogue.

    Now I know many of you will be saying, Fuck the cops, they beat and shoot people and arrest innocent people etc...and you would be correct.
    I don;t want to have this the center piece of this discussion, but I am someone who lost a parent because of this same type of arrogance and ignorance.
    I say this to say to you all, I get it more than most.

    But at a certain point we have to let that go and get beyond it. Look at what South Africa did. If we choose not to get past it, then we must admit to ourselves that we will have a multi-generational enemy and that will do us no good if we want to achieve our goals.

    We all know that the big companies control the government. They have their own "Security" forces who interact with the Feds and are defacto members of the state.
    Now when you look at how local departments get funded, they are funded largely by federal tax dollars handed out via FBI and DHS now.

    That makes the local departments beholden to the Feds on a lot of levels.

    The Feds are supporting the big corporations, and more often tan not, the local PDs and Sheriff departments are being spun up to go out and beat protestors and arrest them because they have been "briefed" that some evil group has come to their town and their way of life is at risk....and now it is up to you Mr Sheriff to save us all. And we will support you 100% and make sure your department gets something in their Christmas sticking later this year.

    So how do you break that cycle?

    First, the local officers are getting screwed more than most on their pensions because JP Morgan and friends have looted their coffers. So we have to educate the cops on what they have lost and why. Then demonstrate our willingness to help them (see what I just did)

    Now they have an ally not an enemy. Now when we go out to do our hing in what ever form that may take (legally) by our working with the officers and their unions to show we are out there for them, the dynamics have now changed.

    But that takes some lead time and softening the ground to do this.

    I got a lot more...but the point of this step is, why not get the officers who will be sent out to arrest us a reason to think twice about it.
    There are not enough FBI agents to go town to town to take down everyone. The Feds have to have local officers.

    So I am suggesting take that tool in their arsenal out of the equation the best we can.

    I'll leave this one to get some responses and then move on if there is anyone left after reading this incredibly long winded post
  20. Andy Downs Member

    Non-Violent strategies are not some soft way to approach change. They are real weapons that have real effects "IF" planned out.

    We don't need to take down the government. We just need to get the government back representing us
  21. Andy Downs Member

    I know some of you think I am nuts, but look at this Marine talking to NYC cops at Occupy Wall Street.
    Watch the shamed expressions on some of these cops faces. He was able to reach some of them.


    Now what I am suggesting is reaching out prior to the events so you are not left with trying to manage a crisis, rather preventing one.
    The cops are too dumb to know in most cases how they are used.
    So educate get them on our side, then do what we have to do with them on our side as opposed to an enemy.
  22. Andy Downs Member

    Think of this Cop Reach out as a way to at least divide the attitudes of police. They have used divide and conquer for decades. The same tactic can be used against them

    This is only a means to an end. It is a first step in being able to go into an area, and get done a specific goal and have the least resistance
  23. Andy Downs Member

    Another tactic to be used in a build up to getting something solved in any given area is to have mass FOIA request on police brutality reports. Start collecting and have a version of Anonfiles stocked full of Police brutality and corruption reports that can be open to the public

    These could be shared with defense attorney's and used as a public pressure point.

    So you reach out to those you can, and discredit the rest
  24. Libdem Member

    My thoughts on social media activism and online petitions are this---twitter and facebook are great forums for learning about topics and meeting other people, and for being globally active while staying in front of a computer screen, but as I saw on twitter, "if petitons actually worked they would be illegal" ---now Rachel Maddow has pointed out a petitioner from Asia that actually got a result from the White House, but policy issues are rarely acutal responses from public outcry.....we may think that we stopped SOPA, PIPA, or the bombing of Syrian but really it was the tech giants and their lobbyists that have more influence in DC, and it was most likely the White House itself that used the threat of strikes against Syria that forced a deal on chemical weapons, not us on twitter or even Tea Party in congress, who were BEGGING Obama to get involved in Syria before he said he would, that made the decision to strike or not----so while I would like to think that we matter, I have yet to see concrete evidence so far, though I'm sure NSA thinks we're all terrorists anyway......LibDem
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Andy Downs Member

    I. Pick issue (like photos being sold by LEOs)
    II. Pick target city or cities
    III. Start contacting LEOs with facts
    a. Collect data on how their pensions are being screwed by Wall Street
    b. Show facts only and how those sales of data go to same ppl that screw them
    c. Meet LEO union leaders and LEOs (multiple)
    d. Fliers to officers outside each precinct
    IV. Take a month to get to know the officers doing this.
    V. Educate public next (staggered at the 4th week)
    VI. GOAL: To stop the sale of public pics to private companies
    VII. Meet council members (find out who is naught or nice)
    a. Find out whose campaigns benefit from these sales. Someone will have a trail
    b. Get vids ready to educate everyone in area (Congrats on your 16 yr old getting a licence-Do you know your child's photo got sold?)
    IX. Major Event with a specific piece of legislation for city addressing issue
    X Follow up with week of calls, emails, etc to reenforce
    XI Show up for votes

    But we need to have as few enemies as possible. That is why I am suggesting getting the LEOs on our side as much as possible. We can then take out the one weapon big companies have via government to come kick our asses. And we will be able to possibly have LEO union support on our side in the process.

    If we lose we have to have in place a strategy for getting public civil disobedience and other types of specific tactics in place to keep issue alive.

    There has to be a contingency for every scenario planned out so no matter what happens we are better prepared than the opposition
  26. Andy Downs Member

    VOTE PACK 2014

    This is where we start. The corporations and 1% have their own money packs all over with billions to spare.
    What do we have...our vote

    So start Vote Pack 2014......
    We get people to pledge votes based on 1-2 issues. Regardless of the candidate, if they will back our issues, they get our vote/

    Thoughts?
  27. Andy Downs Member

    We need a site where people can log on and pledge their votes that will identify their districts.
    Interactive map where vote pledges can be counted.
    We agree on the 1-2 issues, then show the candidates running if they want our votes, they pledge to back our issues.
    We will post the candidates who back us, pictures, names, districts, etc....
    We need someone who can design a site like this.
    I do not have those skills
  28. Watcher Member

    I like the one site idea. Would make things easier to organize.

    There's so many issues to deal with. Picking just 2 might not be enough. We need to reform the political campaign and donation processes. Set term limits to get rid of the current bought and paid for votes and prevent further long term corruption. And we need to get rid of the millions of dollars donated anonymously by corporations, buying votes. Our foreign policies need a major overhaul. Get the middle class back to work to rebuild our tax revenue. Punish companies that want to increase profits by sending jobs overseas yet claim human rights are important to them. Put the Glass Steagle act back in place. Review our defense spending and the amount of foreign aid sent. And quit this new war waged against those that are in need of financial assistance. There's so much more but this is a good start. No way are these leaders stupid enough to keep making these mistakes that are ruining this country and putting millions of families in poverty by accident, so they must be doing it on purpose.

    The most important thing IMO would be getting people out to vote. I was talking with Lawrence Wilkerson recently about how things can be fixed. We talked about the Declaration of Independence clause on changing the current government. The crazy amount of money and corruption in politics, and lack of interest from American voters. Wilkerson was Colin Powell's chief of staff in the State Department from August 2002 until Powell left office in 2005 and currently teaches at the college of William and Mary and does not support the Bush ideals. The easiest thing to agree on was people need to vote. If the 99% actually voted we could start to fix things rather quickly and peacefully. The hardest part would be finding candidates worthy and not able to be bought. Seems like most leaders dating back to the 1970's have been part of the Bilderberg group, Trilateral Commission, and/or the Council on Foreign Relations. So while the names change the situation only gets worse.

    Presidential voting percentages in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections
  29. Andy Downs Member

    I agree there are a lot of issues out there that need to be addressed.
    My thought is if we pick too many, it will be harder to build a coalition.
    Not everyone will agree with everything.

    There is also the political reality that you have to have a win.
    Wins build momentum, momentum builds a stronger coalition.

    That is why I say pick only a could of issues to start with that everyone can get behind. Then build on that success.
  30. Watcher Member

    Which issues would we start with?

    I've been talking to a lot of people about the voting, getting good candidates, and the opamericanspring stuff and I'm not seeing much interest. I'm sure some aren't interested because they aren't americunts like us. Not sure how to get Americans interested with all the celebrity tv stories going and american idol getting down to the finals. :D
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Andy Downs Member

    Slow and steady
    It has to start with a few who get something tangible for people to look at...a website (which I do not have those skills to design)

    I would suggest for issues getting a consensus of that small group to vote on 1-2 or two issues.
    Then start getting the word out to the masses
    There is enough time if we can find someone to design the site to get this done.
  32. rickybobby Member

    QFT
    • Like Like x 3
  33. The Internet Member

    Special interest gonna special interest and rich people gonna bribe politicians. Sunshine helps but money always talks. We have to be vigilant about that but like dust it is always going to be there in need of regular wipe up.

    The one thing that will ruin us if we don’t get on top of it soon is misinformation. When people are misinformed they can be made to do anything.

    Somehow there has to be more of a price for bullshit coming from people on a public platform. Right now, people try to ignore bullshit because they fear restrictions on speech. But certain speech platforms have wide reach and therefore anyone speaking from those platforms has to double check their facts lest America become more confused.

    But who gets to say what is and is not a fact? Well, who gets to decide whether some mathematical calculation is correct or not? The answer is, everyone capable of doing that.

    Statements can be good summaries of the facts, poor summaries of the facts, or something in between. The stuff in the middle is the realm of opinion and we can allow people to have their own opinions. What I find chilling and dangerous are powerful people pressing poor summaries of the facts.

    One example: the think tanks telling America that there is no scientific consensus concerning global warming. Several comprehensive reviews of all scientific papers published over decades with key words in their abstracts like, “climate change” and “global warming” show thousands of papers on one side of the debate against a few dozen on the other side. Those dozens are in shitty journals mostly. So fuck, that is a fucking consensus. Not even close to a gray zone where reasonable people might disagree.

    Another recent example:

    You may have never heard of Burzynski but he is a big deal for some strange reason. The Zeitgeisters actually made a movie about how his delusional cancer cure is being suppressed. Misinformation from private parties is best countered by other people pointing out where the moonbats have gone wrong.

    But when my own government lends a hand to an evil fucktard living in a multi million dollar house while taking advantage of cancer patients, then I mad. My government has a responsibility to promote good info not quack propaganda. Here is a US Senator pressuring the FDA to bend the rules for this terrible quack: http://www.ayotte.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1183

    From Senator Ayotte’s perspective, she gets to be the hero to one of her constituents. There is no real downside for her in promoting a quack treatment like this. I want there to be a down side. She needs to check out what Burzynski is doing and why it is clearly not science. Jesus, a quick PubMed search would prove the man has no dox and therefore must GTFO.

    How do we make people like Senator Ayotte pay a price for promoting bullshit?
    • Like Like x 3
  34. rickybobby Member

    Educated, thinking people can have wildly differing opinions on diagnosis and treatment of disease. Indeed, some of what you would call "quackery" of today will become standard treatment of tomorrow-- Fecal Implantation Therapy works and it helps people NOW, rather than waiting the 10 years it will take Pharma to do the research necessary to monetize it and distribute it widely. Not to debate fecal implantation therapy here, mind you, but, my point is......

    I think everyone has a right to treat their conditions in their body however they want, with good or proven therapy, or quack therapy. If I get cancer and want to pay someone to lay hands on me and howl at the moon for me that is MY RIGHT to do so. If I opt for an experimental treatment to the destruction wrought by chemotherapy and radiation, then so be it. It is my understanding that he is mostly treating patients who have aggressive cancers not responsive to other treatments, anyway-- we don't have much in our medical system to offer those folks with Gliomas; it is has one of the worse prognoses of any malignancy.

    It is not up to the government or you to dictate those choices to me. I am all for educational programs and teaching people how to make better decisions, but I don't want that shit legislated. Legislating personal decisions IS NOT the fix for an appalling lack of critical thinking skills in the public at large.

    BTW, you could do more for public health and keeping people from dying from cancer if you advocated for the abolishment of the cigarette industry, rather than outlawing small fry like Burzynski.

    And, btw, for anyone interested, here is the pubmed search:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Burzynski SR[Author]&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=16484713
  35. You guys are not doing shit. Admit it.
  36. DeathHamster Member

    This is what happens when the quacks take over:
    http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...rs_leave_trail_of_medical_horror_stories.html
  37. The Internet Member

    The game turned out to be a lot more complicated that I first thought.

    I need to get a job at the NSA so I can use their metadata to figure out the network of scammers replacing medical science with sciency shit like Narconon. Also strange holistic birthing practices. We’ve not been paying attention to that one but it is a big deal with Scientologists.

    The Scientology infiltration of healthcare is a scam like Pyrex. Pyrex cookware used to be this awesome stuff that you could put in the oven and then under running water in the sink. But a company bought the name and reformulated the glass with cheaper materials so it can’t tolerate temperature changes like that. It is still sold as “Pyrex."

    So America is going to get more and more sciency medicine rather than medical science because sciency is a fraction of the cost and it looks just like science. This is how the Scientology scammers are going to be raping us over the next decade or so.

    I want to go back to the days when protesting Scientology was fun. This political legal bullshit is no fun at all. But fuck, what will stop them, the vampires that don’t say “Scientology,” but who sell Herbalife and go exterior and network with Sea Orgers and buy politicians and crack souls and eat wogs for dinner just like Hubbard?

    I’m glad y’alls are looking for a fun angle to the game though. Needed.
  38. The Internet Member

    India was a cold war battle ground. Speculation on my part: to get in ahead of the Russians in some areas, our CIA guys got cozy with Ayurveda fascist crazies. This is why we have urine drinkers over here like Burzynski (antineoplastons = urine stuff).

    But India now makes a lot of our generic medications and supplement products. So it sucks that India is full of quacks and our FDA has been castrated in the name of “health freedom.” Ya, free to take supplements contaminated with god knows what. Gee, thanks.

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