I know there are a lot of horrible atrocities going on in Iran, and the people responsible for them should be held accountable. But, could it be that the CIA took advantage of the tense atmosphere surrounding the Iranian elections to create this "Green Revolution" in order to destabilize the country? Again, not saying Ahmaninejad was a good guy or anything. Read this article on it, and check the links, tell me what you think: KOPYME - Color Revolution in Iran? Let's keep an open mind and discuss this intelligently.
I'm pretty sure a free Iran would screw up the CIA's plan for world war three. Take the nukes from the psychos and the US and Israel won't have any reason.
I couldn't care less if the CIA is involved in these protests. These people are protesting for voting rights, and the right to protest peacefully. If the CIA is helping them do that, then more power to it. The Iranian government has operatives in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, so why can't the CIA operate in Iram? If the Government keeps allowing operatives to shoot these protesters, then we can be assured that more and more Iranians will be willing to help the CIA against their tyrannical and despotic regime. Incidentaly, the Iranian government is spreading propaganda that this is a colour revolution like others. Read this article: Robert Fisk: Battle for the Islamic Republic - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent Were those other revolutions supported by the CIA? Possibly, but I don't see that as a bad thing, because these protesters are on the side of right, and the Iranian government is unarguably on the side of WRONG, supporting the use of military tactics against its own people.
True. Wrong. The CIA is not helping the Iranian people, odds are that if they are involved they started some seemingly random violence and clashes with the Revolutionary Guard that turned this peaceful protest into a bloody mess. Possible. They are both doing the wrong thing. That's exactly how you do a coup d'etat. Hey, I'm no fan of Ahmaninejad or the Islamofascist regime, but this IS a color revolution. They were, it's confirmed. Color Revolutions, Geopolitics and the Baku Pipeline Most of them probably. True. But remember that the CIA, MI6 or whatever alphabet intelligence agency most likely initiated the violence which has now spiraled out of control. This is nothing new, it's a proven strategy and has been done time and time again, and people always fall for it.
This assertion would be more persuasive if you backed it up with some evidence. It won't be a revolution if the protests end. Incorrect, the Iranian government initiated the violence by filling the streets with police and militia. There is no conspiracy here, the Supreme Leader TOLD us that is what he was going to authorise on Friday, and then he went and did it on Saturday.
Ayatollah Khameinei Does anyone else find it extraordinary that this muppet is still alive? Why doesn't someone organise a wet team and surgically remove him? He is the complete anthithesis of what it means to be a sentient human being. How dare he order his people to stop the protests! Is the sky blue on his planet as well? I am an humanitarian and do not wish violence on anyone, but I don't think I would lose any sleep if I pulled the trigger on this guy myself. Wipe. Him. Out. Now.
There were twitters spreading as unsubstantiated rumours last night that Khamenei had left Iran and gone out into a rural area for his own safety. Which of course demonstrates that as well as being a geriatric nutcase, unlike the protesters, he is also a coward.
There is no real evidence, yet. This just looks exactly like every other coup d'etat and revolution that the intelligence community has been a part of. Just like you can recognize Picasso's artwork without his name being printed on the painting, you can also recognize the work of the intelligence community. True, but that remains to be seen. True. But there must be some reason, bigger than just peaceful protests, as to why the police and military started firing on their own citizens. If firing on peaceful protesters is Khameini's and Ahmaninejad's strategy then they are severly retarded. It's a recipe to loose control of the country and I doubt they'd want that. But even though their moral compasses seem to be a bit off, I don't they are complete retards. There has to be an angle here, there always is.
Suggesting that the U.S. / U.K. and other countries have security operatives working in Iran is just stating the bleeding obvious. Iran has operatives working in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and controls one of the political parties in Lebanon, so why wouldn't the U.S. pursue their interests in Iran? Because the government of Iran: KNOWS that the elections were unfair. KNOWS that its policies do not reflect the will of the people. KNOWS that if free and fair elections are held, the people currently in power will LOSE power. There is way too much thinking going on here. These protesters are simply fighting for freedom and democratic rights which many other people throughout the world have enjoyed for decades if not hundreds of years. The events of the last week have just shown to us that thousands of Iranians want the same rights as people in other countries. Of course it is their strategy because Khameni said during his Friday prayer that that is what they would do! So he is saying to the protesters, that if they continue, whatever happens is NOT his fault. Since he controls the military, militias and police, we know that he ordered the complete crack down on the protests yesterday. Of course they have no moral compass, anyone with morals realises that people can disagree with the government, and peacefully demonstrate that disagreement without the threat of being bashed and shot to death. Ahmadenijad and Khameni want a government where they can say and do anything but not be held accountable for anything. The protesters want a government that is accountable to the people.
Here's some recommended reading on the subject ... CIA Manual: Psychological Operations in Guerilla Warfare Coup d'Etat: A Practical Handbook by Edward N. Luttwak, Senior Advisor to CSIS and former intelligence operative.
Agreed. True. What better time to nudge the Iranian people in a direction that is more favorable to the US/UK? I mean, the Western business interests would rather have Iran peacefully hand over it's natural resources and let Anglo-American companies "modernize" the country than to invade. I suggest you take a look at John Perkins book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. I believe that's what you and most of them believe. Then he either has the IQ of a braindamaged snail, or he is destroying his base of power on purpose for some reason. Essentially committing political suicide. If that is the case, then they have made a huge mistake because the opposite seems to be happening. True. But what they will get is the same thing that Afghanistan and Iraq got. And McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Subway, 24 hour cable TV, shopping malls, GMO food ... that's freedom 2.0 ...
When looking for things that aren't there I'm sure *you* will find them. Are you a troofer? If you believe the world is run by conspiracy and the CIA have an omnipotent ability to force hundreds of thousands of Iranians onto the streets where they risk death then all is lost for you. Learntohistory and learntohowtherealworldandpopularpoliticsworks. Take your conspiracy garbage elsewhere, and try to spew it when the blood of innocent people protesting for change, democracy and liberty against vile tyrannies isn't running in the streets, have you no shame when you dishonour them?
I believe the intelligence community is able to take advantage of the tense atmosphere surrounding the Iranian elections and turn the situation into something that is more favorable to Western powerbrokers. Wow, intelligent discussion on this topic lasted a whopping three hours. This far exceeded my expectations. Thanks to everyone who contributed something of value to the debate; here is where the flaming, rants and spewing of hatred seems to begin. BTW: Challenger Mousavi Has Conservative Past - WSJ.com
It is hard for many of us in democratic countries to comprehend, but Khamenei isn't responsible to the people. He can't be voted out, he is supposedly appointed to his position for life, there is only a very remote possibility that he could be removed from office, but that is done by a council of religious scholars that he appoints! Of course! And if a Government tells its police, military, militias etc to go out and bash and shoot the populace, civilians will be more likely to help out intelligence services of other countries if they think it will end up in a change of government.
BAAAAWWW (Are you a troofer?) Don't be disingenuous, there is a very big difference between hinting the CIA might be doing something inside Iran and saying the Iranian green protesters we see today are puppets of a CIA coup, and for that matter, that the democracy movements in the colour revolutions in the Ukraine, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Serbia were mere puppets of the CIA. You slur all those people and unjustly belittle their causes. Revolutions are made by people acting in accordance with their beliefs and at great risk to themselves. They are the backbone, they are the vital element, not a plan hatched around a table at Langley. Intelligence agencies can play their role, they will contest with other intelligence agencies to influence events, that is the nature of such politics. None of what they do counts for shit unless enough people believe in the cause of the movement and are willing to back that conviction and go into the streets at their own risk. The people of Iran have been motivated by a strong desire for change, a desire they have been willing to die for. To suggest that they are CIA dupes, that democracy and liberty are not worth fighting for, to suggest that when you participate in an election it is only CIA intrigue that would make you want your vote to be counted and that election to not be fixed, is ridiculous conspiracy theory and disinformation. Prima facia, when you live in oppression, you protest and rebel. Prima facie, when you think an election that has been fraudulently decided against your candidate and your vote not counted, you protest and rebel. You don't need the CIA to tell you how, what and when and to pay you to do it. Are they all in the CIA's pay? You are looking for "an angle", to project your CIA conspiracy theory upon the free Iran movement as you have done to the other, equally just, colour revolutions. In projecting this you echo the theocrats propaganda and you discredit the cause. That is why when arguments likes yours are made they need to be meet strongly, because they can destroy the external support the Iranians need to achieve their free nation by unjustly undermining the integrity and motivations of the movement. I sincerely hope there is a green colour revolution for democracy and liberty in Iran and I hope the CIA, MI6, Mossad (and every other intelligence agency of democratic nations) are doing their best to help the Iranian people create a free Iran. I hope 2009 is the year the theocrats are consigned to the dustbin of history.
The point is, they accomplished what the Western powerbrokers wanted. In a sense they were and are puppets. True, obviously you can't have a revolution without people. And I do admire their courage even though they actually fought to increase the Western sphere of influence and power. It's a known psychological principle that if you can get 10-20% of the people in a group to agree with something and take action, the rest will follow. We're essentially pack animals, and we have a thing called herd mentality. I believe that they believe that they are fighting for their freedom. But Mousavi is just as rotten as Ahmadinejad. It's like fighting over a McDonalds cheeseburger and a BurgerKing cheeseburger. Are you suggesting there was a CONSPIRACY to rigg the Iranian elections? Heavy words my friend, you might just be another tinfoilhat wearing nutjob, aye? Nobody said they were ALL in the CIA's pay. That's an impossible scenario and a logical fallacy. I'm just saying, there is a big possibility that the CIA, or someone, perhaps even within Iran, that would like to profit from this chaos, might have helped to turn peaceful protests into violent ones. Not at all. Unlike you I'm acting rationally and concidering alternatives to what the mainstream propaganda mills are churning out. You have just been emotionally swept away by the bloody images posted on YouTube and CNN, you no longer respond to logical arguments and are inable to have a civilized debate. You just resort to calling people names and using logical fallacies in your so called arguments when confronted with opinions that do not align with your view of the situation. Yes, Iran and Afghanistan turned out great, let's liberate Iran! Because McDonalds and shopping malls are freedom! I do hope the Iranians find freedom, but they won't do that with the help of the intelligence community or Western countries, because our help comes with strings attached. And they would not only have to oust Ahmaninejad and Khomeni, but also Mousavi, Rafsanjani and all the other corrupt rotten politicians that run their country.
LOL! So do you want the current Iranian regime to have influence and power in the world, when it is willing to order the bashing and shooting of its own populace simply because some of the population wants to peacefully protest? You are assuming that the protesters are simply supporting Mousavi, what we saw last week was much bigger than just that. If the Iranian elections weren't rigged, there would be no need for it to jam satelite TV, censor the internet, shut down the mobile phone system, kick out international journalists and shoot and bash protesters. [ THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT turned these peaceful protests into violent protests by ARMING its police and militia with tear gas, batons, and guns. You are essentially blaming the victims. How do you know this? Is Iraq more free now than when it was ruled by Saddam Hussein? Did U.S. operatives have a role in getting rid of Hussein? So on the one hand, you say that the U.S. is interfered too much, on the other hand you think it will need to interfere more to take out more politicians. This doesn't make sense.
That doesn't make sense, nobody ever said or implied that. Another emotionally driven non-argument. Everybody seems to be wearing green scarfs, which is Mousavi's trademark. But I do hope it is bigger than that. You need to understand sarcasm. You are calling people conspiracy theorists when they think the CIA, some intelligence agency or other agitator might have helped make peaceful protests into violent ones, while you at the same time believe there to be a conspiracy by Ahmadinejad and his cronies to rigg the elections. Can you see the sarcasm? Somebody started the violence, somebody escalated it from tear gas and batons, to shooting people with live ammo. If Ahmadinejad and Khomeini wanted to stay in power they would not have given the police orders to kill civilians, it's the perfect way to commit political suicide and alienate yourself from the Iranian people. Beyond stupid. It simply does not make that much sense to me. And again, I don't like Ahmadinejad EITHER. No, Iraq is not more free today. Go ask any Iraqi living in Iraq outside the Baghdad green zone. You can't force democracy down anyone's throat. It's like when I was a kid the teacher's in my school forced me to eat fish, and there's nothing bad about fish but I didn't really like the taste of it at that time. However I disliked the fact that they were forcing me to eat it even more. So I grew up not eating fish at all, and I still don't like it. Wrong. Again, you are making up stuff. This is a Iranian domestic issue and nobody should interfere, but if the Iranians truly want freedom they can't choose the lesser evil, they should get rid of all the corrupt politicians and theocrats.
Absolute rubbish. For the third time are you a troofer? No participant in the colour revolutions was a puppet, those today in Iran are not. Again you slur the protesters who fight for democracy and liberty, why? What don't you like about those universal concepts? Are they too western to be good? What is wrong and what is nefarious about western influence? Would you rather they had trade deals with China and India to the exclusion of Europe and America? Is that your stumbling block? What is wrong with the trade, economic, cultural, tourist exchange between the west and the rest of the world? What is this bizarre conspiracy axiom that "western influence" is an evil to be avoided at all cost and makes any democratic movement illegitimate? Why is what "western powerbrokers" want an automatic and undeniable evil? What if "what they want" is a universal support for free elections, democracy and liberty for all? The core values of all modern western nations. By your thinking that means all those virtues are tainted by the same western influence evil and worthless. Your conspiracy theory believes that only 10-20% of people can independently form political opinions and have agency over their actions whilst the rest are too stupid to be able to think for themselves and are therefore puppets of the CIA and "western interests"? Again, dopey conspiratorial thinking. Individuals make informed decisions about politics and whether to participate in a revolution. To go out into the streets and defy death requires a much higher standard of free choice than ticking a box in a "western" election. Repression breeds rebellion, false elections breed rebellion; common, easily understandable emotions and reactions. (What is your psychological principle? Where are your studies? Why the huge error bars, 20% is double 10%?... Again dopey conspiratorial thinking) You are not just saying that competing, and perhaps veiled, interests may lurk behind the turmoil in Iran seeking to pounce, that is obvious in any political situation from the mildest local issue to the turmoil we see in Iran today. You are talking of a CIA conspiracy for starting the protests and for turning them violent. You can see the video for yourself of who and what is creating violence. The security forces are launching a crackdown, and in any revolution protesters are beginning to break eggs to make their omelette. Does the CIA whisper in the ear of of basiji to crack that baton? Do they relay an order from Langley for the protesters to set fire to a captured bike? Did the order to shoot that poor girl come from Virginia? You are saying that the protesters are illegitimate, and puppets, and who therefore should be opposed. By denying them their legitimacy you are acting in concert with the vile tyrants of Iran. What do McDoanlds and shopping malls have to do with free elections, democracy and liberty? Another bizarre analogy. Democracy and liberty are not fast food and materialism. They are democratic institutions of government and the rule of law governed by an indepedent judiciary that upholds the rights of the people. Perhaps McDonalds and shopping malls have something to do with free trade and an open developed economy, but if Iranians actually wanted to lift themselves out of poverty that would no doubt be a "western influence" orchestrated by the CIA. Interesting to note that you do not offer the analogy of the results of the other colour revolutions with the Iranian one, instead the very non-colour reigme changed by US military force... Maybe the colour revolutions were not such a bad western thing after all? And in any case, Iraq and the liberated areas of Afghanistan are far better off now then under the rule of their prior tyrants. Iraq in particular enjoys democracy and liberty unimaginable under Saddam's tyranny. One would expect a defender of the Mullahs to also be friendly towards Saddam and the Taliban. What is on the cards is the overthrow of the entire regime, that a rigged election is a spark for the overthrow of the entire theocracy. If you want to find your "angle" then here it is: Providence is shining the path to liberty for Iran.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRwUZ-u6KFo]YouTube - CIA, Iran and the Election Riots - June 14, 2009[/ame]
Laff. You are skilled in propaganda-speak. Again, a non-argument. What if sharks are really vegetarians? So, you have been in a revolution before? Would you like some fries with that?
Are you simple?... Really politicians never make mistakes? They never misjudge a situation? Dictators and tyrants never repress their populace? They never crack down on revolts and protesters? They are never brutal? Suppressing street protests never get out of hand? Paramilitaries and internal security forces with guns never fire them on protesters in heated confrontations? Really learntohistory. That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. History is full of peoples mistakes and similar examples of violent repression of peaceful protest, and the theocrats decision to crackdown may yet prove to not be a mistake if they can crush the democracy movement. Ridiculous Iraq is a free country with a functioning and inclusive democracy. You reveal yourself as a fraud when you claim that Saddam's Iraq was a free nation. The last time Shia liberation movements were getting killed before today's Afghanistan was Saddams brutal repression of the Shia uprisings in 1991. Again I can understand that somebody who fails to see the moral situation in Iran today would be such a fan of Saddam's Iraq. Your fish story is dopey political science and is ignorant of both history and the current situation in Iran. Nobody is trying to force democracy on Iran. Iran already has weak democratic elements and the Iranian protesters are trying to strengthen those democratic elements, we hope at the expense of theocracy in its entirety. Secondly democracy was imposed on Japan after WW2, Japan is an overwhelming success story of imposed democracy forced down a country's throat. The same is true of West Germany, and of South Korea. Over a similar timeline Iraq will also prove a like example, the progress it has made out of Saddam's tyranny in such a short time has been amazing. Again learntohistory
BAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW You lose troofer. May the people of Iran overthrow their theocratic masters and usher in an era of democracy and liberty for their nation. Those with a semblances of a conscience and the smallest bearing on their moral compass will be supporting them in every way they can in their just struggle against theocracy. Your friends in the west and around the world will not forget you and will help you in every way they can. Another colour revolution for the freedom of evermore people! Wear Green and show your support for a free Iran!
i live in croatia we used to live in Yugoslavia. when "democratic changes" came, we celebrated. now we mourn for yesterday's life. in ukraine, jučenko lead the revolution against "dictator" 4 years after, dictator won on elections. in georgia, current leader won the revolution against russian backed dictator. now, people are protesting against him. some may ask why? because when you have "democratic leader" after the "revolution" than in a few years, people live much worse, economy is ruined, national resources sold, rich "elite" is created and working people work more for less money. and democracy is an illusion. they is a saying..."be careful what you wish for, it may come true"...
your doing it wrong learntodemocracy Democracy does not end with a democratic revolution, its an ongoing process where the campaigning and contest between ideas never ends. If you don't like the policy of a government, you campaign, donate and take your ideas to the people at an election. Protests are always part of a democracy, it is a sign of strength and success, not failure. Democracy is the best form of government. It is the only modern form of government. It is the only form of government that can achieve high GDP per capita (excluding the mini oil states), that is general prosperity. All the worlds strongest democracies have the highest standards of living. And whatever the flaws or problems you have with it remember, Democracy is the worst form of government except for all others.
False Dilemma. Iraq was never free, and it's not free now. Ask any Iraqi. Ad Ignorantiam. I don't know who you are refering to. Your intention was obviously never to make a valid argument or find out the truth, but to acheive an imaginary victory to pump your ego. I seriously don't know why they let you use the computer. BTW. Anyone who takes this guys posts seriously must be deficient in brain cells. Good luck with that, hope everything works out for you.
like you're gonna teach me about democracy. i was figthting against dicatator in my country in 90's, after so called "democratic" elections. if you want to have democratic elections, first condition is to have democratic candidate. which mousavi isn't.
Untrue, learntothinkforyourself. In a democracy 51% of the population are free to oppress 49%. Hitler and Mussolini were both democratically elected, do you think they are the good guys? All the people's rights should be protected, even the smallest minority, the individual. Yes, even YOU. "If a majority are capable of preferring their own private interest, or that of their families, counties, and party, to that of the nation collectively, some provision must be made in the constitution, in favor of justice, to compel all to respect the common right, the public good, the universal law, in preference to all private and partial considerations... And that the desires of the majority of the people are often for injustice and inhumanity against the minority, is demonstrated by every page of history... To remedy the dangers attendant upon the arbitrary use of power, checks, however multiplied, will scarcely avail without an explicit admission some limitation of the right of the majority to excercise sovereign authority over the individual citizen... In popular governments [democracies], minorities [individuals] constantly run much greater risk of suffering from arbitrary power than in absolute monarchies..." -- John Adams, US Founding Father
Another BAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW post. You have gone too far offtopic now, other than to say that you posts are now devoid of any argument, you have failed to hold your conspiracy theories up to any integrity, you have failed to answer any question or challenge put to you and your search to find a fallacy on the internet to post in lieu of an argument or a shitty one-liner are wrong. Posing a question of the existence of motivating factors and causes behind events that have occurred throughout history, which you have denied could exist as a motivation or cause for a present similar event, is not a false dilemma. A question asking for an answer of the existence of a historical facts is not an "either/or", it is true or false. In asking for many different historical facts offering many different motivations and causes it is not a dilemma, there are more than two choices, if you construct an argument out of the serious of questions I posed, and in no way does it exclude other possibilities. There is no balance of evidence issue with the imposition of democracy in Japan after WW2 (or West Germany or South Korea), it is a very basic fact. A statement does not become a balance of evidence issue just because you are a dope who needs to learntohistory. Iraq is free, listen to the people speak, listen to the people debating politics freely, watch them participate in genuinely free elections. You can shitpost your support for the theocrats in Iran, you nostalgia for tyrants like Saddam, and your love for thugs whilst they kill Iranians in the street till your troll heart is content, but this is not what these forums are for, and it is not why I post here. And how can you not know what a troofer is? You with the regime? Google it so you can at least pretend.
You need to offer a better form of government than democracy to make that argument. A tyranny of the majority and a slide into socialism may be a flaw of democracy, but democracy is still the worst system except all others. You ignore the solution employed by every democracy to Adams problem, that is a constitution enshrining rights enforced by a independent judiciary. Hitler and Mussolini did not contest new democratic elections after they obtained power. Mussolini, after a coup, instituted a fraudulent democracy and Hitler hardly bothered at all with the pretence. Democracy is not a one off, it is a regular popular contest. And as you well know democracy is more than just elections and majority rule. Considering this is an Iran forum to aid protesters this is way off topic. We take it as an axiom that democracy and liberty are a better choice for Iran and all peoples of the world.
In your post, you seem to be talking more about yourself than anybody else. Maybe you are confusing my posts with your own, as we're both using the "Unregistered" nickname? There is about as much sense having a discussion with you as there is having one with a rock. You clearly have no interest in finding out the truth, you seem to only want to "win". You are no doubt a troll of the highest caliber. Again, good luck, and I hope they let you out when you feel better.
We'll if you believe that you no longer live in a democracy you fought for, fight again. Or perhaps try working within the democratic system harder and winning the support of your people like every defeated election candidate and party in any democracy. Your problem seems to be with a dictator, not a President or Prime Minister? True democracies do not have dictators, you should help build a true democracy. What would you rather than democracy, a different dictator? I agree that the elections were a sham from the beginning, that's an obvious fact due to the selection and veto of candidates. Mousavi is probably not a true democrat, he may prove to become one, though I doubt that. What he has done is crystallised a democratic protest movement, that may just bring democracy to Iran. And that is something worth fighting for and for outsiders to support.
Agreed. I think that was the "BAAAWW" trolls objective. To poison the well and turn this into a flamefest. Anyway ... [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRwUZ-u6KFo]YouTube - CIA, Iran and the Election Riots - June 14, 2009[/ame]
Kissinger Calls For Regime Change In Iran If Coup Fails Zbigniew Brzezinski Calls For "Intelligent Manipulation" In Iran John Bolton Said We Must Attack Iran in 2007 We must attack Iran before it gets the bomb - Telegraph
