Clearwater April 16 & 17 postgame: Cultwatch Anniversary

Discussion in 'USA - East Coast' started by anonymous612, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. RightOn Member

    Wow ok...
    I am sorry I don't agree .
    People who work at Blockbuster can come and go as they please. They are free to do whatever they want. Be friends with whomever they want, raise a family, live where they want, and with who they want, and provide themselves with food ( that they choose and also choose when THEY want to eat it), they have days off, visit family, celebrate holidays with family, can call who they want, go on vacations, buy clothes, wear what they want, own a car, and yes are free to get drunk on a Friday night if they choose to. Free to go on the internet. Free to read what they want. Free to go to a movie, a concert, a freind's wedding or whatever. They also make a mininum wage. And some above that.
    They can do what they want with their free time and work normal hour work weeks. Not 70-80- hours a week.

    So to answer your question, yes I think they would be more happier working at a Blockbuster. It would be a walk in the park compared to what Sea Orgers endure.

    As far as doing things for the community, they would be free to chip in and choose whatever charity they want to volunteer for, or donate their money to a certain cause or not.
    Fulfilled? I can't answer that for them. I just know what they would be free to do.
    I don't think it is right for people to be abused. That has nothing to do with me juding people for where they work.

    Do you think if the abuses that go on within the Sea Org were rectified, that they would be able to run the Scientology Orgs? Would they be able to print out all those materials and books? Lanscaping, book work, building maitenance, ect.... if they paid Sea Orgers a minimum wage? How about GOOD health care? Allow them to have children? I dont think so. If they were to do this, I think the orgs would fail all together. In order to keep the orgs KSW, they must continually supress their freedom, cut them off from the outside world, keep them tired and hungry ect... it's all part of being submissive.
    How would you change the Sea Org and how would that work?
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  2. Anonymous Member

    OK, on homosexuality. I can only speak from my own experience, observations, and conclusions. When Hubbard speaks of homosexuality in, say, Science of Survival, he groups it with other "perversions" as denoted by Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis, which he specifically references. As you know, until very recently, homosexuality was considered by the medical community as a mental illness, a "sexual perversion". In that sense, Hubbard was a product of his time and Scientology followed suit. I know that twenty years ago, homosexuality was considered something to be cured in Scientology. I also know that, more recently, a gay friend of mine is openly gay, a Scientologist, an OT, and his (male) partner does Scientology also. I also have seen mention on the net of other openly gay Scientologists in the LA area.

    That said, I think Scientologists lean toward the conservative and exhibit the "traditional" conservative homophobia, perhaps exacerbated by what they perceive Hubbard would think of gays. Personally, I do not think Hubbard cared much one way or the other.

  3. anonymous612 Member

    I can buy that, I suppose. Certainly the part about Hubbard's writings on it being influenced by the time period.

    The Sea Org's been mentioned several times here. What about the claims that people in the Sea Org who get pregnant are pressured into having abortions?
  4. RightOn Member

    Here is a Hubbard quote from the Modern Science of Mental Health
    What am I not understanding about his views on gays and lesbians?
    yes I know it was written long ago, so are you saying he changed his views with time?
    and also do you think Scientology can cure homosexuality?

    "The sexual pervert (and by this term
    Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all
    forms of deviation in dynamic two such as
    homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism,
    etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and
    Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill

    L. Ron Hubbard, _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health_,
    Book Two, Chapt. 5, at p. 120 ((c) 1989 L. Ron Hubbard Library)
  5. Anonymous Member

    Happy and fulfilled Sea Ogres?
    Troll or bot, doesn't matter. No one home. And the straw arguments are textbook. If by chance a bot rather than troll, I'd say: If you're genuinely still interested in "unexplained phenonema", then you're an inquisitive pioneer type, and that's why Sci was attractive. It's simply time to move on to other actual scientific research and studies. A great deal has been discovered in the last half century. Enroll in college and pursue your interests. But first, stop in for some educational goodies, like

    If you're hanging around to save Scientology, gathering moss and planting seeds, too little too late. Sci ended about 30 years ago, no matter the name is still used by others today. And sci without the SO bullies, sociopaths, and the oxymoronic sci ethics is not possible. It's like gravy without flour or water impossible.
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  6. Anonymous Member

    I do not think it is about agreeing or disagreeing with me, I think it is about imagining a different way to live one's life and respecting another's decision to do so.

    I have that respect and I only ask that those that choose that path be treated fairly and have the right to leave that path without undue cost if they want to leave. And if the Sea Org is not performing to that standard then it needs to be corrected and if anonymous can help with that correction then I support anonymous.

    I do not think you are judging people for where they work, I think you are judging them for how they choose to live their lives.

    There is no need for Sea Org to be paid minimum wage. That is ludicrous. They are a religious order, they do not work for coin. They should have adequate health and dental care. They should be well-treated, good food, adequate rest, time off to smell the flowers. There is plenty of money to go around, nothing is going to collapse.

  7. Yes, there are lots of flavours of moonbats out there. The point remains - Scientology is almost universally despised - by scientists, ex-scientologists, critics, judges, reporters, Anons...on and on...but you know we're all ignorant, or misinformed, or eevil psychs, huh? C'mon, you're having a laugh.

    Not about me, though if you tell me you've listened to more than a few hours of LRH's bollocks without getting a clue, I'd say your comprehension skills and your metaphysical tools are in a sorry state - but you're having a laugh, right?

    Not inclined to believe you, period. You're having a laugh.

    Heh. Great advert for your metaphysical system TC turned out to be, eh? LOL

    Not relevant - it's your moonbattery we're talking about. Tell us more about these tools, won't you? But, spare us the PTS SP BS, and the e-meter BS, and the 'wins', and the gorilla goals and the obscene dog, and the spotting spots BS and swatting Body Thetans with your Thetan Hand BS, and being 3 feet in back of your head BS and the Conditions BS and the tonescale BS...

    What tools?
  8. Anonymous Member

    You might be right, there.

  9. anonymous612 Member

    The lack of proper pay and benefits for the Sea Org are well documented. Whether or not they should be well-treated etc doesn't mean they are. And I don't see you out here with us trying to fix it.

    And I'm still waiting for answers:
  10. RightOn Member

    Oh I know people choose to go into the Peace Corp or a religious order by their choice. But how many Scientology parents were pressured into having their children join the Sea Org? How many children born into Scientology (that are not publics) have the choice between joining or not?
    Many ex's have said that they were pressured into having their kids join the Sea Org in one way or another.

    If you think there is plenty of money to go around (member's money) then why don't members who don't agree with the abuses of the Sea Org take it upon themselves to donate items to the Sea Orgers? Surely many Scientologists are dentists and doctors. Why not donate their free time to give these people proper checks ups, and run some tests? How about take them out on the town once in a while? Perhaps a steak dinner? Fly them home to see family? I am shocked that you think all the hard work that the Sea Orgers do, is not worth at least a minimum wage?
    And I am curious, do you think all orgs are thriving orgs? And if so, how do you know this? Just by stats you are told?
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  11. amaX Member

    Deolinda is the female who owns the tailoring business. I am going to try to get the police report later this week. I've had too much IRL stuff going on to get to the police station.
    The attacker stood in the middle of the parking lot behind the Coachman Building screaming and cursing at all of us Anons to get the fuck off of his sidewalk. (Evidently this guy truly believes he owns the sidewalks because he got into a heated argument about owning the sidewalk with a Clearwater Police Officer at our protest this month. I believe this guy still thinks he owns the sidewalks even after the talk with the officer.) The attacker then walked out onto the sidewalk on Ft. Harrison Ave. One of our female Anons was taking pictures of the parking lot and this guy started to run at her. She froze. I got in between and put my hands up on my chest (arms NOT outstretched) and told him to stop. He did stop, but then starting screaming and cursing at the Anon behind me because he happened to be in some of her pictures. As I was trying to explain to him that it was LEGAL for us to take a picture of anything or anyone as long as we didn't use the pictures for profit, he raised his right arm up and slapped my left arm which was still up against my chest. I'm a big, strong woman. He hit my arm so hard that it fell to my side. I told him he couldn't hit me or put his hands on me and if he did it again I was going to call the cops. (Something that I'm pretty damned sure a Scientologist would never let slide.) As I was saying that to him, he shoved me so hard that I fell back into the female Anon who was standing behind me. If she had not been there I would have fallen completely backwards. That's when I dialed 9-1-1 and my attacker started trying to get away. We followed him. A police report was filed and it is now in the hands of the State's attorney on whether they're going to prosecute this guy or not. I have been assured that if this guy is not prosecuted that the Scientologists better not lay their hands on any of us ever again since this is now the fifth assault of an Anonymous protester in Clearwater.
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  12. anonymous612 Member

    Are you suggesting that illegal activity is acceptable for Scientologists as long as it isn't really, really illegal?
    • Like Like x 5
  13. RightOn Member

    I am going off line for a while
    I appreciate you taking the time to answer. :)

    Some questions I still have for you besides the ones I already asked are:
    Do you know why the Super Power building has taken over 10 years to complete? You said there was plenty of money around.
    I don't know where you are on the bridge, but if you are high enough up there, do you plan on doing the Super Power Rundown yourself?

    Would you be willing to meet with Sea Orgers and ask them if they needed anything? Or if they had any wishes?
    And would you be willing to buy the Sea Orgers simple things like toiletries, or take them out to dinner once in a while?
    Perhaps plan an outing to a park or beach for a nice break? Would this be allowed for you to do? And if not, why?

    What do you personally think of David Miscavige as a church leader? Do you think he does/has done a good job of running COS?
    Why do you think his wife never attends any events or has not been seen for over three years?
    Surely she would want to attend the big IAS balls, the New Years Eve events, and Ron's birthday celebration?
    I don't understand why she is never seen? For such a big church leader, I find this very odd.
    He also has not done a public interview since 1993 ( I think)
    Why would such a huge church leader of such a great religion deny all interviews for so many years?? Over 18 years! What are your views on this?

    I have more questions.... but I feel like I am bombarding you.
    Take your time to answer.
  14. Anonymous Member

    Iiiiiiiiiits Godwin time!

    If Hitler invented yummy cheesy-poofs, would you eat them?
  15. over9000OT Member

    I'm not convinced that Somewhat isn't a massive troll. But, given the relative rarity of actually having a Scientologist speak with us poopoohed SPs, I'm game...

    Somewhat, in your own words, can you tell us, specifically (where appropriate):
    1. What Scientology has done for you? In other words, what's the bang for your buck?
    2. Why the church feels like it should sue "critics"?
    3. Why your religious materials are copyrighted and other Scientology elements trademarked?
    4. What does a body thetan look like?
    5. How were there DC-8s 75 million years ago?
    6. Is it Xemu or Xenu?
    7. How come OTs still need glasses, are fat, need insulin, have debilitating injuries (a guy using a cane regularly enters our org), etc.?
    8. Why Scientology deserves tax exemption in America?
    9. Where Heber Jentsch is?
    10. Why Scientologists generally refuse to answer questions and, instead, respond with "What are your crimes?" or act like they didn't hear/read the question. You've done that in this very thread so I feel fairly righteous in assuming that you will do it again. Notice how I've numbered my questions? If you feel like my 10th question is unfair or misguided, perhaps you'll start with answering 612's completely reasonable questions.
    Again, assuming you are not a troll, you have an opportunity to help us affect the changes that need to happen in Scientology. Put your moral money where your virtual mouth is and help us out.
    • Like Like x 2
  16. anonymous612 Member

    Here's another question. Maybe if I give you enough options you'll actually answer one of them.

    You are noticeably answering questions that have easy answers, and that allow you to dismiss our concerns.

    Why aren't you answering the others?

    You can start with CCHR, since you brought it up. CCHR claims psychiatrists are rapists and murderers. Do you honestly believe that? How about the fact that Scientology tells its members we're being paid to protest by psychiatrists and the drug companies, do you really believe that? And if you don't, how can you allow your own religion to lie to you so blatantly? Have you asked yourself what reason they would have for wanting you to think that? Is it because they want you to dismiss what we're telling you because we're working for the Scientology equivalent of Hitler?

    Elli Perkins was murdered by her schizophrenic son because she did as Scientology taught her to do and took him off his medication. He stabbed her 77 times. How do you explain that away?

    Still waiting to hear your response to the Sea Org members being pressured to have abortions too.

    And, you know, basically everything else I've asked you.
  17. Anonymous Member

    Ha ha, there goes that semantic sleuthing again. Both sides of this little war are prone to overblowing rude and/or stupid behavior to the crime of the century. I have to tell you, though, Scientology is winning that battle and it is not even close. See "Cruise missile" Keith Henson and any number of more recent criminal cases, restraining orders, etc. So when either side screams "assault", I ask was it just a stupid act that a cop would tell you to knock it off or was it real handcuffs and "go to jail" assault.

    Apparently AMA was actually assaulted and I wish her luck in pursuing all legal and civil remedies available. Who actually assaulted her? I gather it was not "Deolinda".

  18. anonymous612 Member

    The greek man who owns the property. I don't know his name off the top of my head.

    And protip: If you grab someone's camera or spit on their sign or whatever, the cops are certainly able to take you to jail for it.

    Gonna go back and answer my real questions yet or should we small-talk more?

    Here's another one for the list. Explain this:
    "ENEMY — SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.”

    And before you claim it was cancelled in 1968, please reread your own documents which clearly state the only thing that was cancelled was referring to the practice by the phrase "Fair Game," presumably because of the incredibly bad PR involved.

    EDIT: Or another one. Again, feel free to answer ANYTHING I've asked you. You have enough to choose from. Pick one.

    If Scientology really wants to help you, why do you have to pay so much for courses? Why do you have to pay so much for going OT? I've read OT III, OT V, OT VIII, etc, and I assure you I haven't dropped dead from pneumonia because I wasn't ready for it or whatever. Why do you have to repurchase the books so often because Miscavige releases newly edited versions? How much more money is it going to take to open the Super Power building? What the heck is with all these Nation of Islam guys? Why is there a fence around Gold Base and if it's to keep burglars out WHY DO THE SPIKES FACE INWARDS?
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Anonymous Member

    Because I am under no compunction to answer anything. And I prefer to answer things that I might have some actual knowledge about or that I can make some intelligent conclusion about without referring solely to hearsay. I might wish others had the same standards.

    Wait, people lie???? But not L. Ron Hubbard, right? Please don't tell me that Ron ever lied! That would make my entire existence a lie!!

    Oh, here is the Godwin. I was wondering where it was when I saw the other post.

    Because Scientology and vitamins does not handle psychosis and she was wrong. She paid the price. There, did I sufficiently explain that away?

    Mixed feelings. I am sympathetic to the protest but, as someone said to me when I asked, they know the rules going in and they can leave if they want to. Listen, women talk themselves into abortions or are talked into abortions for any number of reasons; not the right time, don't really like the guy, interferes with my plans, whatever. And I am sure that many of them feel remorse later in life. I am sure very few here oppose a woman's right to choose.

  20. Anonymous Member

    See, this is what I mean. How the hell would I know?

  21. anonymous612 Member

    That's great, try answering the question now. Are you suggesting that Hubbard and Scientology lied about how evil psychiatrists are? Because that's basically a good two thirds of CCHR's entire purpose in life right there.

    But Scientology claims vitamins and auditing DO handle psychosis.
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  22. Anonymous Member

    No, that is not what I have observed from watcching my share of protest videos. Not in the US. At worst, the cop has a stern word for the offender. You have something different to show me? I would be interested to see it.

    • Like Like x 1
  23. anonymous612 Member

    Take a guess. We'll forgive you for not being completely accurate. Why do you think they face inwards?

    I'd be particularly interested in an answer to these:
    excluding the last one. Why is that the only one you addressed? You really just have no opinion about any of those other issues?
  24. Anonymous Member

    I agree with CCHR's general message about the evil of psychopharmacology, psychosurgery, etc. So?


  25. anonymous612 Member

    But you're agreeing that the stuff about omg don't go to a psychiatrist or they'll rape you is probably bullshit. Yes?

    I've bolded my favorites for you and the specific example is in red.

    Heal a body HCO BULLETIN OF 24 APRIL 1969RA
    "The basic use of Dianetics is to make a well body
    and to augment physical treatment."

    Cure retardation [ibid]
    "Whole classes of "mentally retarded" children have been made
    more normal by teachers in London County Council schools using
    relatively unskilled Dianetics. "

    Cure goiter DIANETICS TODAY (1975 ED.) P.280
    "I've seen a goiter the size of a baseball visibly shrink and
    disappear in the space of one-half hour right after an engram
    was run."

    Cure polio DIANETICS TODAY " P. 353
    "A girl crippled by polio was able to throw away her crutches
    after my first session."

    Cure arthritis History of Man p. 7
    "Today, Eleanor has arthritis. She is audited... tonight she
    doesn't have arthritis"

    Speed broke bone healing DIANETICS TODAY " P.110
    "A broken limb will heal (by X-ray evidence) in two instead of
    six weeks."

    Cure effects of drugs DIANETICS TODAY " P.481
    "ONLY processing by Dianetics and Scientology can handle the
    effects of drugs fully."

    Raise the dead Magazine Articles on Level 0
    Checksheet 1968, "Dissemination of Material" p.75
    "A child had died, was dead, had been pronounced dead by a doctor,
    and the auditor, by calling the thetan back and ordering him to take
    over the body again brought the child to life."

    Cure migraines DIANETICS " P.125
    also see HCOB 15 Jan. '79 "Handling with Auditing"

    Cure cancer THE HISTORY OF MAN (1961) P. 20
    "Cancer has been eradicated by auditing out conception and

    Cure skin cancer ALL ABOUT RADIATION (1979 ED.) P.114
    Cure radiation sickness ALL ABOUT RADIATION " P.109
    also PAB no. 82 "Scientology is the only specific (cure) for
    radiation (atomic bomb) burns."

    Improve eyesight PAB no. 111 "Eyesight and glasses"
    also Dianetic Auditor's Bulletin vol. 2 no. 7 January 1952 "An
    afternoon with Ron" "You are only three or four hours from taking
    your glasses off for keeps."

    Cure a broken ankle HCOB 30 July 1973 "Scientology, Current State
    of the Subject and Materials."

    Cure insanity HCOB 28 Nov. '70 "Psychosis" "The alleviation
    of the condition of insanity has also been accomplished now..."

    Cure bronchitis HCOB 14 Dec. '63 "Case analysis Health
    "12 days after this auditing the coughing was still in abeyance."

    cure brainwashing HCOB No. 19 Dec. '55 "The turn of the Tide"
    "... in Dianetics in particular, we have the total antidote for the
    eradication of brainwashing."

    Miscellaneous claims DIANETICS (1987 ED.) p.72
    "arthritis vanishes, myopia gets better, heart illness
    decreases, asthma disappears, stomachs function properly and
    the whole catalogue of illnesses goes away and stays away."
    "The GE has the record of past deaths. Auditing it alters physical
    structure, eradicates physical malformations."
    "Paralysis, anxiety stomachs, arthritis and many ills and aberrations
    have been relieved by auditing them."
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Anonymous Member

    Because they face both ways, fer chrissake, and that is clearly how the product was manufactured. My guess? Anon/OG tinfoil. Please forgive me if I am not completely accurate.


  27. anonymous612 Member

    I asked why that was the only question of a rather significant list you asked, and also the question that tbh I least gave a shit about. Can you answer one of the real ones from that post now?

    Seriously, I have a whole bunch of questions about Hubbard himself and I feel bad asking them before you've answered my earlier ones.
  28. Anonymous Member

    Well I doubt I would be anyone's first choice for rape but it does happen and I think there was another recent case in Florida. And didn't you see Terminator 2 and oh, how about Kill Bill - was that a psych hospital ;-)

    Yes, and there are other references that state that Scientology has no place handling the insane and to give them over to the psychs (since they made them that way, of course). Might even be the same ref but since you came up with the dox, I will give you this one.

  29. anonymous612 Member

    Yeah, and in the Wolfman there was an ugly scene in a psych hospital.

    And that movie was about a Werewolf.

    Because it was a movie.

    And movies aren't exactly known for accuracy.

    Can you answer my questions now?
  30. Anonymous Member

    OK, ask me one question that you think I might actually be able to intelligently answer and I will do my best. I owe you that much.

  31. anonymous612 Member

    If Scientology really wants to help you, why do you have to pay so much for courses?

    Optional bonus: Yes, I agree with you, people lie. That doesn't make it right. And not only is it wrong, but sometimes it's really, REALLY wrong.

    So what do you have to say about the fact that to this day, the Volunteer Ministers claim the FDNY gave them a medal for services at Ground Zero that is only awarded posthumously to firefighters who have died in the line of duty?

    I mean seriously. 9/11 is not the appropriate incident for Scientology to be lying about in order to make themselves look good. That's a whole new level of douchebag right there.

    Keep in mind I'm not asking why they did it, or whatever you might not be qualified to answer. I want your opinion on what YOUR church did.

    • Like Like x 6
  32. Lorelei Member

    Scientology: What's good isn't original, and what's original isn't good. Discuss.
    • Like Like x 3
  33. anonymous612 Member

    9/11 is such a conversation killer.
  34. Anonymous Member

    That is it, that is your burning question?

    Well, I can think of a number of answers:

    The cynical answer is that is is totally a con and the mission is to fleece you as much as possible before you 1) catch on and quit, 2) run out of money, or 3) blow your brains out.

    The official answer might have to do with the "principal of exchange" and how you would not get any gain from something that you did not exchange for as that is "criminal exchange" and criminals don't make case gain.

    My answer is "What makes you think Scientology wants to help 'you'?" As in "you in particular". Scientology very much feels that it owes no-one anything and has no specific obligation to help you or anyone else. The specific mission of the Church of Scientology is to create Scientologists that then go out in the world and improve conditions using Scientology. It is supposed to operate kinda like a pyramid scheme but a pyramid scheme for good :) Perhaps those Scientologists would then want to go out and help the poor and needy with nothing in exchange. And some do. But that ain't the Church of Scientology's mission and they ain't doing that.

    Scientology only wants to help you to the degree that it forwards that mission of creating trained and audited Scientologists.

    Mostly they want you to train as an auditor and co-audit. Buying auditing in the org is not the preferred method as far as that mission is concerned and the prices are kept high to keep it exclusive. Exclusive as in excluding you.

    There are different ways to get Scientology training without paying big money for it; I have earned thousands in training awards doing various projects for the Church in construction, or whatnot. There are scholarships. There are other ways involving selling books or getting new people in. That pyramid thing.

    Now that is how it should work and often does. I am not saying that it has not been or is not perverted.

    So you have to pay because it costs money to operate orgs (and the Sea Org gets its cut) and the Church is not in the business of charity - it is in the business of making Scientologists.

  35. anonymous612 Member

    What about donating to charities? What does the charity (or for instance specific random homeless people or whatever) give back to you?

    That doesn't sound like a Church.

    That sounds like a business.

    And businesses don't get to avoid taxes because of being religions.

    Now how about the Volunteer Ministers question?
    • Like Like x 1
  36. RightOn Member

    back again
    I still have some questions too.
    I cut some out and added some.
    Didn't know if you want to answer these of not, so before they get lost in this thread, I will ask them one more time.
    Keep in mind the ones you choose not to answer may not look too good towards your defense of Scientology.

    Would you be willing to meet with Sea Orgers and ask them if they needed anything? Or if they had any wishes?
    And would you be willing to buy the Sea Orgers simple things like toiletries, or take them out to dinner once in a while?
    Perhaps plan an outing to a park or beach for a nice break? Are any fellow Scientologists allowed to do this? And if not, why?

    What do you personally think of David Miscavige as a church leader? Do you think he does/has done a good job of running COS?
    If you felt that he did something or does something that you do not approve of, can you talk about David Miscavige in a negative way if you felt like it with any fellow Scientologists? If not why?

    Now for the following question, keep in mind I am asking you what YOU think, not where she is.
    I was looking for more than a "I have no idea" answer, and bolded the other question.
    Why do you think his wife never attends any events or has not been seen for over three years? Do you think this is odd?
    Surely she would want to attend the big IAS balls, the New Years Eve events, and Ron's birthday celebration?
    For such a "beloved" church leader, I find this very odd.
    He also has not done a public interviewwith the media since 1993 (I think)
    Why would such a famous church leader of such a great religion deny all interviews with the media for so many years?? Over 18 years!
    What are your views on this?

    if you don't want to answer these let me know.
    Thanks for your time.
  37. Anonymous Member

    A Scientologist would consider it spiritually unhealthy to accept charity and a spiritual crime against another to offer them charity.

    Repeat the question, please.

  38. Anonymous Member

    How about "where is Shelly Miscavige" ??
  39. anonymous612 Member

    But...the Church is tax exempt because of being considered a Church. But it operates like a business, by your own explanation. So isn't the Church basically accepting charity by allowing the IRS to consider them tax-exempt?

    Yes, I agree with you, people lie. That doesn't make it right. And not only is it wrong, but sometimes it's really, REALLY wrong.

    So what do you have to say about the fact that to this day, the Volunteer Ministers claim the FDNY gave them a medal for services at Ground Zero that is only awarded posthumously to firefighters who have died in the line of duty?

    I mean seriously. 9/11 is not the appropriate incident for Scientology to be lying about in order to make themselves look good. That's a whole new level of douchebag right there.

    Keep in mind I'm not asking why they did it, or whatever you might not be qualified to answer. I want your opinion on what YOUR church did.

    • Like Like x 1
  40. Anonymous Member

    I would hate to think I am "defending Scientology" as I think it is sometimes indefensible. I am simply trying to give you a bit of insight into the mind of one Scientologist.

    People do that and I have bought Sea Org members meals.

    I am withholding judgement on Miscavige for now. You know, I hear on the net all about "Idle Orgs" and "Ideal Morgues" so I made a couple calls. Called two OTs associated with different Ideal Orgs and they both told a different tale indeed. I am withholding judgement until I see for myself.

    I had that conversation about Miscavige with an OT friend recently because he was determined to get it out of me. I consider it bad manners to spread rumors about someone that another looks up to. So yes, we talked about it. He had a completely different take on things that are generally criticized heavily like GOT, Basics, etc. And most Scientologists do. That said, I told him I would be very disappointed if he reported our conversation as that is something that Scientologists are encouraged to do - report an "outpoint so it can be handled." For my own good and spiritual freedom, of course.

    How do you know that she is not in the audience at events? Is Scientology such a great religion? My view is that Miscavige does not want to be in any situtation he cannot completely control. I think he is a control freak.


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