Charleston Church Shooting

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The Wrong Guy, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. ~Andromeda~ Member

    When taking control of or destroying an opponent from within, the key is to attack the center of gravity. Control the mind of the inhabitants, change the shape of the way people view life and the values upon which their life is based. If you can shape the mind, you can control their direction. Control their direction and you can lead them to destroy themselves.
    • Like Like x 1
  2. BrainStorm Member

    Indeed. We know that mainstream media is just propaganda and yet, some of us still go with it.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. The Wrong Guy Member

    Bree Newsome: Flag activist becomes online folk hero | BBC News

    On Saturday morning Bree Newsome climbed up a flagpole on the South Carolina state house grounds an activist, determined to take down the confederate flag flying there. By the time she climbed down and was quickly arrested by state police, she was a hero to many online.
    • Like Like x 2
  4. The Wrong Guy Member

    Ku Klux Klan to protest removal of Confederate flag on July 18 at Statehouse | Post and Courier

    The Ku Klux Klan has been approved to hold a protest rally at the Statehouse next month against removing the Confederate battle flag, with the group calling accused mass murderer Dylann Roof a “young warrior.”

    The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan applied for the permit last week to hold a rally for 100 to 200 people on July 18 on the north side of the Statehouse. That’s where the Confederate battle flag presently flies.

    Brian Gaines, spokesman for the S.C. Budget and Control Board, said the state provides rally space at the Statehouse site when space is available or previously not reserved. The move was not endorsed by Gov. Nikki Haley. “This is our state, and they are not welcome,” she said in a statement issued by her press office.

    In its application permit, the Klan lists equipment needs as a podium and public address access. The group is headquartered out of Pelham, N.C.

    Robert Jones, grand dragon for the group, said on Monday that the Klan is a civil rights organization dedicated to white culture and history as symbolized by the rebel banner. During a phone interview, Jones gave words of support for Roof, saying he erred in going after black people while they worshipped. On the Klan group’s telephone answering machine is a recorded message that refers to Roof as a warrior.

    Roof, 21, of Eastover is charged with nine counts of murder in the June 17 shooting at Emanuel AME Church. All the victims were black; Roof is white, and has reportedly promoted white supremacist activity in his writings and on the Internet. Officials have labeled the attack a hate crime.

    “He was heading in the right direction; wrong target,” Jones said. “He should have actually aimed at the African-American gang-bangers, the ones who are selling the drugs to white youth, the ones who are robbing and raping every chance they get.”

    The rally is slated from 3 to 5 p.m. July 18.

    Continued here:
    • Like Like x 1
  5. The Wrong Guy Member

    Fire crews responding to blaze at African American church in Greeleyville, SC

    A prominent African American church that was burned to the ground by the KKK in 1995 is currently on fire, according to an official.

    Fire crews are battling the blaze at Mount Zion African Methodist Episcopal Church, located at 564 MacKey Rd., according to the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    Mt Zion AME Church Fire: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

    Twitter search:
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Every day that flag flies over state buildings is another day when the state does harm to its own people.

    Another day that postpones the righting of past wrongs, another day when the state fails to make reparations for its barbarous history. Another day that reminds us of those who enslaved and oppressed their fellow human beings. Another day to remind us that some are still not sorry for what they did - instead they choose to revere and celebrate past atrocities.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. White Tara Global Moderator

    It should never be necessary, but with regard to the burning of churches, I would love to see large numbers volunteers to do shifts patrolling at risk churches. It would serve as a deterrence and create potential witnesses at trial for these disgusting redneck arsonists. I am hopeful of course, that the full weight of the law would be brought down upon those caught engaging in racially motivated hate crimes like these. :(
    • Like Like x 2
  8. BrainStorm Member

    Why is the flag a problem after so many years? Why now? Just questioning from an outsiders perspective.
    Seems to be just race war propaganda, or am I the only one here who thinks that? :x

    Should they ban the american flag also? lol
    • Like Like x 1
  9. White Tara Global Moderator

    If you look at the confederate flag in its more recent history from about the 1940's onwards its not hard to see why a goodly proportion of people around the world have come to recognize it in modern context as a symbol deeply linked to black hate. The thread title and the actions and motivations of Dylann Roof answer the rest of your question as to why

    If anyone should wish to blame anyone at all for the loss of the confederate flag (on public buildings only mind you) they should look squarely at the White supremacists, the KKK and their ilk. The recent burning of churches, frequented by african americans, in response to the 'loss' of the confederate flag speaks volumes about many pro flag demonstrators true motivations.
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Random guy Member

    Again as an outsider I'd say the flag always was a problem. What has happened now is the shooting has made visible an opposition that was already there.

    The Army of the Tennessee battle-flag only really became popular during the Civil Rights era, representing "heritage" of of the white establishment (i.e.e segregation) versus the new era. With the older generation of segregationists now dying off, the demographic that see the flag as some sort of absolute symbol of their culture is dwindling.

    The KKK are going to hold a rally to support the flag. To an outsider like me, that's rather telling.

    The "banning the US flag" is a stupid argument and a straw man. A more pertinent question is why the war-banner of a state that was the enemy of the US is flying from US governmental buildings in the first place.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. The Wrong Guy Member

    Matt Pearce ‏@mattdpearce 9 minutes ago
    I'm following the church fires again. I'll have a story up a bit later that will hopefully address the What The Hell Is Going On component.

    Operation Ferguson ‏@OpFerguson 1 minute ago
    Pro Tip: We know who is burning these black churches, and they'll be holding a rally at the SC Statehouse on July 18th - to celebrate.

    Ku Klux Klan plans rally at South Carolina statehouse

    The Ku Klux Klan plans to rally in July in response to calls to remove the Confederate flag from South Carolina statehouse grounds.

    "We will be at the statehouse in Columbia, S.C., standing up for our Confederate history and all the southerners who fought and died against federal tyranny," an automated message on the Loyal White Knights's answering machine said.

    The white supremacist group, which claims association with the KKK, is based out of Pelham, N.C., according to the group's website.

    "Our government is trying to erase white culture and our heritage right out of the pages of history books," the message said.

    Brian Gaines, spokesman for the S.C. Budget and Control Board, confirmed plans of the rally to USA TODAY Network. It will occur on July 18 from 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. ET, he wrote in an email. Reservations to use the statehouse grounds are made online and are given on a first-come, first-served basis, he wrote.

    Why racists target black churches | The Washington Post

    Here's the Twitter hashtag:
    • Like Like x 2
  12. The Wrong Guy Member

    • Like Like x 2
  13. The Wrong Guy Member

    TV Land drops 'The Dukes of Hazzard' reruns | Los Angeles Times

    A spokesperson for the network declined to elaborate about the reason for the decision, but it comes in the midst of a nationwide debate over the Confederate flag following the murder of nine African Americans in a racially motivated attack on June 17 at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C.


    Board votes to remove Confederate monument from Linn Park | WBRC Birmingham, Alabama

    The Birmingham Parks and Recreation Board has taken the first step to remove a Confederate monument from Linn Park. The board voted to remove the monument during a meeting on Wednesday. Members also agreed to get the city's legal deparmtent to research any legal impediment in moving the monument.

    The monument was placed in Linn Park in 1905 by the Pelham Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. That group does not exist any more, so the board said it will contact five other chapters in Birmingham to see if they will assume the cost and resposibility of moving the monument.

    Board member and former Birmingham mayor Benard Kincaid said he wants to be respectful of history, but in light of the church shootings in Charleston, South Carolina he does not believe a Confederate monument should be in a city park in Birmingham.

    • Like Like x 1
  14. Anonymous Member

    Same Shit Different Assholes.jpg
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Hedorah Global Moderator

    Found this on FB
    • Like Like x 1
  16. White Tara Global Moderator

    • Like Like x 1
  17. Random guy Member

    If people want the battle-flag removed, support for the flag by the clan is the best they can hope for. The changing attitude to the flag is a sort of "hearts and minds" type of battle over what the flag stands for. Endorsement from the clan is putting a spanner in the works of any group trying to claim the flag is about "heritage, not hate".
    • Like Like x 3
  18. BrainStorm Member

    One thing is sure, they are promoting division and the media loves it.

    "Keep them focused on each other so they don't focus on us" type of deal.
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Random guy Member

  20. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  21. Hugh Bris Member

    The US now responds to a mass murderer by banning a TV show.

    I fear for my country.
    • Like Like x 1
  22. The Wrong Guy Member

    Nobody banned the Dukes of Hazzard TV series. The network that had been airing its reruns decided to stop airing them. There is nothing legally preventing another network from buying the rights and broadcasting the episodes.
    • Like Like x 2
  23. Hugh Bris Member

    The TV station banned the show.

    But the man did not kill because of a flag. And to divert the attention to a flag, rather than dig into the causes of such irrational and murderous acts, is to ensure that we do not answer the question of why they do it.
    • Like Like x 2
  24. White Tara Global Moderator

    Nobody has said that the flag caused Dylann Roof to Kill those people. However the Flag is a symbol for Dylann Roof and many other people. Some believe it a positive symbol, others and I would venture the majority in the United States see it as a deeply negative symbol. Its removal is a consequence of Dylann Roofs actions. He brought the spotlight firmly onto the elephant that has long been in the room.

    Events often have knock on effects. In this case its prompted calls for meaningful discussion on gun law reform (woefully unheeded at this point), acknowledgement that the confederate flag has no place above public buildings, dissection of the mentality behind the white supremacy, and hopefully discussions on the system or lack thereof for assessing and assisting the mentally ill. All of these things are central to Dylann Roofs actions IMO, ergo all should be discussed and taken action on where appropriate.

    The flag issue is the knee jerk in an ongoing conversation. Its the beginning not the end.
    • Like Like x 6
  25. Random guy Member

    I'd say the murders allowed for a long overdue debate on the public display of the Confederate flag. Some of the Republicans arguing for taking the flag down does so from an economic standpoint. Investors and trading partners not from the South (or even the US) reacts negatively to it. Their argument is that they want their business partners to feel at ease and welcome, hence the flag has to go, at least from public space.
    • Like Like x 2
  26. Random guy Member

  27. BrainStorm Member

    History is racist, let us forget about history! lol :p
  28. The Wrong Guy Member

    Anonymous donors give $3 million to fund scholarships after Charleston shooting | The Washington Post

    A group of anonymous donors raised more than $3 million to establish a scholarship fund in the name of Clementa Pinckney, the slain pastor at Emanuel AME Church and a South Carolina state senator, Charleston Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. announced Thursday.

    Why blacks see Dylann Roof as a terrorist and whites don’t | The Washington Post

    Was the shooter a terrorist? Or was he simply a lost and animus-filled individual who committed a one-off hate crime?

    Apparently the answer depends in large part on whether you are black or white. A CNN/ORC International poll released Thursday revealed a pretty stark racial divide.
    • Like Like x 3
  29. ~Andromeda~ Member

    The KKK is a known terrorist organization. They utilize the same brainwashing techniques as scientology cultists. Interesting, people seem to be more focused on attacking a material object steeped in myth rather than taking on the perpetrators. For those that would like a little balance on the playing field and would not be ignorant of the facts, try reading up on H. K. Edgerton. He is a black southern activist, lifelong civil rights advocate, and former Asheville NAACP president. As for the flag and US history, here is a few interesting things to note.
    • Like Like x 1
  30. Random guy Member


    Notice the "acceptable truth"-tech? I didn't bother to read the rest, I know when people try to pull a fast one on me.

    Pt. 1: Sure, the North fought for economy, but the South seceded to preserve slavery, and there's not getting away from that. The South set off the war by first seceding and then firing on Fort Sumter, so yes, the war was very much about the preservation of white supremacy.

    Pt. 2: The fact that the North weren't paragons of virtue does not detract from the fact that the South went to war to preserve slavery. At least Mosby was honest enough to admit why they fought: "I've never heard heard of any other cause than slavery". He was there, he should know.

    For you flag-fans, do you actually have to resort to half-truths and revisionism to defend the use of the flag? What does that tell you about the case? I'm a bloody Euro-fag, and even I can pick your the stupid revisionist arguments apart without much effort. What does that tell you about the people who argue that the flag is about "heritage" only?
    • Like Like x 2
  31. ~Andromeda~ Member

    Don't you just love freedom of speech? I may not agree with your opinion but its quite liberating that you can have your own. On a side note...Today is Independence Day in the US! 239 years freedom from Great Britain! Our flag is still flying! ;)
  32. Random guy Member

    My opinion? My opinion matter squat, we actually know why the South seceded because they were so kind as to tell us in detail:

    Opinions are like assholes, mate: We've all got one. What matters are DOX. Now bring me yours showing me I'm wrong.

    No thanks to the Confederacy, though. Happy Fireworks-day!
    • Like Like x 1
  33. ~Andromeda~ Member

    Thank you, Random Guy. Dox linked inside here. And some here. For detailed info on understanding effects and affect of tarrifs, here. Slavery was becoming a lessor issue as it was well on the wane during the initial time period. If you go back and read your own submitted documentation of just these 4 states, one can clearly see slavery was not the main gripe of the state's who succeeded BEFORE the civil war ensued, which was due to feds remaining within hostile territory and refusing to surrender. It was about the unfair tarrifs (much like those imposed by Great Britain) the north imposed on the south for the union's selfish AGENDA. The confederacy was taking a stand for their freedom. Would like to end this on a friendly note. It is not my intention to create mountains out of molehills. Knowledge is power. The more we understand, preserve for future generations our history, we better the chances to learn how to grow from it. Am I really concerned about wether the confederate battle flag flies over southern skies? Not really, a museum is fine with me. My Irish heritage were of the first slaves to arrive before Africans yet there is not so much as a tear to shed or a flag to argue over for them. But what does concern me is this is just the beginning. Corruption infiltrates the masses, conjures ignorance and/or passivity of the people. We may very well see the predicted enforcement of new world order someday and some will sit by docile, watching all of our freedoms and history desolve with it. ~Andromeda~
  34. Random guy Member

    In 1881, 15 years after the Confederacy had lost, Davis been ousted and and generally vilified for his role in establishing a slaver state, he wrote: [The secesion], was not the consequence of any difference on the abstract question of slavery. It was the offspring of sectional rivalry and political ambition. It would have manifested itself just as certainly if slavery had existed in all the states, or if there had not been a negro in America.

    It's quite understandable that Davis would try to set up a story that made himself and his life's work look less bad. But while Davis is eager to blame the trade war for the secession, that is not what the states themselves said when they seceded. Davis attempts at casting himself in a l tad more flattering light can't hide the fact that the states were very adamant the cause of the secession was slavery. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.

    There's a word for what Davis tried to do in his 1881 volume, it's called "whitewashing". Says a bit about the amount of spine he had.

    The tariff was no doubt an important weapon in the Norths arsenal of the trade war between North and South, but interestingly enough it isn't mentioned at all in the Declaration of Causes. The trade war is hardly mentioned at all, while slavery is mentioned repeatedly in all declarations. The full texts of the declarations are here, if you want to see for yourself.

    So, if you want to claim the tariffs rather than slavery was the primary reason for the secession, you'll have to take the position that all the senators of the four states writing declarations were lying when they wrote it, and Davis, writing 20 years after the fact and after he'd been dishonoured, was the only one telling the truth. Is that your position, mate?

    Funny, the number of slaves in the South rose steadily from 1800 and onwards, and so did the slave prices, even when controlled for inflation. Scholars also agreed slave run farms were about 35% more effective than similar farms run with hired labour, see Fogel & Engerman (1974): Time on the Cross: The Economics of American Negro Slavery. The assertion that "slavery was on the wane" is something I see here and there, but always without any actual statistics to back it up.

    South Carolina seceded first. They mentioned slavery in their "causes", neglected to mention the tariff and went on a god deal about the Fugitive Slave Act. The large green sector you see in the pie-chart for South Carolina is their a defence of their right to impose their laws on other states. It's hardly what we'd call states' rights in a modern setting.

    So yes, it was about slavery.

    I think we have some common ground. The North were not on a noble crusade to abolish slavery, the abolition only became a suitable tool for the North during the war. Also, I don't buy the "treason" argument. The world is full of states who have seceded in peaceful and timely fashion, see

    Look, I have no problem with the South seceding (I'm not an American, I've no strong feeling on the Union, nor do I venerate dead presidents). I do however feel rather strongly about racism, and I hate when people try to whitewash history to be able to throw around an obviously tainted symbol.
    • Like Like x 1
  35. The Wrong Guy Member


    Color art for a real-life SUPERHERO!
    #BreeFree #FreeBree #SouthCarolina #race #politics #CharlestonTBE #blacklivesmatter
    • Like Like x 2
  36. ~Andromeda~ Member

    As for the waning of slavery...
    Looking under the PROFITABILTY heading in this link "Slaveholding became more concentrated over time. The fraction of households owning slaves fell from 36 percent in 1830 to 25 percent in 1860." - there is a plethora of statistical info gathered together here with sources at close of the page. Not trying to diminish any truth but to bring it to light. In reading over your dox, one can plainly see there are two core issues intricately laced together. The south was almost completely dependant on slaves for their economy. There will be people who will claim the Civil War was fought over slavery, but that was just one of the issues. Southern states were having difficulties with the Treasury Department and bureaucrats in Washington. The southern states were allowed to import goods from foreign countries, but the tariffs on those goods (set by the federal government) made it cost-prohibitive to do so. So the southern states were forced to buy those same goods from the northern states, and since the federal government placed no onerous tariffs on the import of goods that the southern states could produce (cotton, tobacco, etc.) the flow of capital was one way – out of the southern states and into the northern states. Ultimately, the southern states grew so tired of being legally robbed of their wealth by the federal government and the northern industrialists, that they took action to throw off the yoke of oppression. Sound familiar? Very much like the American Revolution.

    One can look at a symbol, lets say, the 12,000 year old swastica, ( "The word ‘swastika’ is a Sanskrit word (‘svasktika’) meaning ‘It is’, ‘Well Being’, ‘Good Existence, and ‘Good Luck’. " ) It has a much deeper meaning, "Permanant Victory". (It is also known by different names in different countries - like ‘Wan’ in China, ‘Manji’ in Japan, ‘Fylfot’ in England, ‘Hakenkreuz’ in Germany and ‘Tetraskelion’ or ‘Tetragammadion’.) It is found all over the world and yet was also used at one time to symbolize the ideals of a madman who attempted to carry out the destruction of a race. Should we banish the symbol because one faction takes offense due to its historical significance good or bad? Should we just simply believe Julius Ceasars accounts of the druids because he was a Roman Emperor? Burn the Myan calendars in hopes that no one will remember the cultures of the past? Even in nature, we see the universe itself is filled with positive and negativity to remain balanced, to bring order to chaos. If people only know good how will they ever know what is bad? My position is simply this, history should be preserved and the past not forgotton. While people argue over 100 year old sentiments there are greater, more current causes to defend against the terrorists, shadows, and sheep's clothes that are the real threat to the human race.
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  37. White Tara Global Moderator

    The long since past of both of these symbols has long been surpassed by their collective modern meaning. This is an unavoidable fact. The Swastica now means nothing more and nothing less than a symbol of hate sported by the Nazis to the majority of the world. The confederate flag means nothing more and nothing less than a symbol of white supremacy to the bulk of the world.

    Its irrelevent today weather or not these symbols were highjacked by bad actors, they are identified as ugly symbols for the bulk of people today. Ergo no place but in a history museum.
    • Like Like x 3
  38. Random guy Member

    Please tell me you see the difference between these two:


    I'm from Europe, we know very well what a swastika represents here. A relative of mine was slated to be hauled off to the concentration camps (VE-day happened before they got to actually send him), so don't even try that spiel here.
    • Like Like x 2
  39. BrainStorm Member

    I understand the argument, but I think its not right to compare the swastika to the confederate flag. The swastika symbol was used to make the Nazi flag, which will always have a negative meaning. The confederate flag was used in battle first and then used by other groups with different purposes (if I understood correctly). So it makes sense to have a division of opinion about the confederate flag.

    What I do not understand is why is the flag such a big issue now, after so many years of Dukes of Hazard series on tv :p
    Is it not suspicious after all the protests (Ferguson, Baltimore, Texas), they keep focusing on the race war in the media?

    To me it is very suspicious, specially when there is so much hate towards the banks and corporate deals that will influence us greatly in the near future (TPP, TTIP, TPA...). This is a diversion and an attempt to divide people more. That is what people should be focusing on, not a stupid flag that won't make a difference in our lives.
    ...anyway, this is my rant about the flag bullshit lol :)
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
  40. Random guy Member

    Selective use of sources. The number of slaves increased steadily until 1860, so those slaves had to go somewhere. If you want me to speculate, I'd guess the increased prices meant slaves were concentrated on fewer hands, i.e. the rich getting richer the poor getting poorer.

    Your problem is that all those issues you mention are hardly brought up by the Causes-documents. Either the writers had extremely poor taste in arguments, or those other factors were't so important the South themselves saw much need to dwell on them.

    Which one is it?
    • Like Like x 2

Share This Page

Customize Theme Colors


Choose a color via Color picker or click the predefined style names!

Primary Color :

Secondary Color :
Predefined Skins