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Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by anon5754, Mar 23, 2008.

  1. cubby Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    i've been lurking this thread the whole way through, not posting because i don't really have a great deal of interest in anonymous posting one way or the other -- if someone's going to disregard my idea because they don't like my 'persona' then fuck 'em -- not everyone will. and if everyone does? fuck 'em anyway. if it's a good idea i'll do it myself. if i were that worried about negative accrual of opinion on my handle, i'd post more thoughtfully -- or have two handles.

    but i think you guys are way off track, honestly. i am interested, now that there is a completely anonymous forum, and a semi-anonymous forum, to see if anything actually does come of it. i haven't seen anything so far. the most productive thing seems to be that the carnival idea finally got off the ground in its third attempt. do you really think suddenly the ideas we couldn't produce before are going to come out because there's allegedly no ego attached? i think there's still ego.

    i agree with gunslinger more than most of the rest of you on this -- i'm not sure if it's going to actually produce anything that wouldn't come about anyway, or just give people who are insecure a chance to strut without repercussions. i don't care if you do it one way or the other -- but to suggest someone's a plant because they don't agree with you -- i thought we were past that? if you think anonymous posting is any more confusing to Co$ then having handles, separate email accounts, and proxies... :tinfoil: well, we all do what we must to keep safe.

    and last poster, i know you labeled your post devil's advocate, but i don't think that means what you think it means...
  2. Anonymous Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    yeah I think the last poster devils advocate was a malapropism, I think he was playing with a thought experiment, rather than actually accusing anyone of being a plant. but he's right it is easier to derail once you can see all the threads tied to the persona and then attack the persona.

    and I doubt insecurity is what most pro anon's are thinking of. personally if i was insecure about shit and had thin skin I wouldn't be posting on the internet, I've got enough balls to take a decent flame and not give a shit. This is the internets, not srs bzns. and funnily being even more anonymous means those flames are easier to ignore and it's easier to stay on target.
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    I get Gunslingers point, I'm not sure it's debatable though. Since at it's core the question being asked is your forum persona restricting you from posting?

    Is it? For some people who attach e-cred and I'm not dispariging that, to a forum name it might be. So I say lets see how it plays out.

    Personally I couldn't care less, it's never stopped me from posting what I think regardless of the format.

    Those who are ardent about this being the best thing since sliced bread make it work. Enough talk about "this is gonna be awesome" and lets see some awesome. Proof is in the pudding.
  4. MsCabbage Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    It's not that it could NOT, but more likely that it WOULD not. People with unique ideas and the ability to express them without fear of social repurcussions are extremely rare individuals - typically mostly they would be either classified as 'alpha' personalities and they make up a very small section of society (typically 1-2%), or socially disordered (another minute subset of society). The majority of people are capable of critical thought and many are capable of creative thinking, but most functional (ie: not disordered) people do not express or act on these ideas due to awareness of social rules and consequences.

    An example of this in action; (not based on internet anonymity, but rather related to customer relationships). In the company I work for, we found that when existing customers were surveyed (and identified) on satisfaction and other factors involved in the comany/customer relationship and process, the survey completion rate was around 18%. Furthemore, we found that from completed surveys, 96% of the surveys filled out were positive and complimentary to the process and company/customer process.
    However we had third party information that suggested that certain customers who had completed positive surveys, were negatively representing the experience to other sources.

    It was decided to trial anonymous surveys to help determine whether or not this helped to gain more accurate results. The anonymous surveys resulted in survey completion response rates of 84% (from 18%). Furthermore, the positive responses declined from 96% to 24%. It was concluded that anonymous surveys produced more accurate results. Firstly because it provided a wider data sample, and secondly because the responses were inline with what other accounts suggested to be the true picture of customer satisfaction. Customers who were not satisfied or only moderately satisfied previously were typically not willing to communicate negativity from what could only be assumed; from fear of jeopordising their existing customer relations with the company. When surveyed anonymously, the level of criticism and negative response increased and more accurate and useful data was gathered in order to improve customer relations. As a result, the company was able to focus on problem areas and implement new systems to alleviate the issues, with much success and clarity.

    Regardless of the fact that Enturb isn't Anon, the activism against the CoS has been largely successful because it has been deployed anonymously, disarming the CoS of its biggest assets - intelligence gathering, public shaming/threats, and litigation. By protesting IRL, even though it has been largely anonymous, it has moved more into the CoS comfort zone as each body is now in a particular region, each body has a face (even masked), they are calculable, they are targettable, they are humanised. In effect, Anon has lost some power by doing so. When Anonymous was a "massive group of unknown size and demographic online" they were a lot more scary and a LOT more unapproachable, predictable and targettable. Even though media and exposure has been gained by going to the streets, it has also lessoned the scare factor for the CoS in some ways.

    IMHO, Having a place that anonymises users, lessons the ability for the CoS to use its major strengths (identification and intelligence), and has the added benefit of encouraging those who are concerned about social ramifications to speak up would be highly beneficial to the movement.

    You can argue that anonymity does not result in differences in data volume and quality all you like, or you can demand proof (which begs the question, why don't you find the proof that it doesn't apply instead?), but it only proves that you are of a small subset in society who doesn't for whatever reason, understand social rules and consequences for spoken words and actions.
  5. Skeptic1337 Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    I get Gunslingers point, I'm not sure it's debatable though. Since at it's core the question being asked is your forum persona restricting you from posting?

    Is it? For some people who attach e-cred and I'm not dispariging that, to a forum name it might be. So I say lets see how it plays out.

    Personally I couldn't care less, it's never stopped me from posting what I think regardless of the format.

    Those who are ardent about this being the best thing since sliced bread make it work. Enough talk about "this is gonna be awesome" and lets see some awesome. Proof is in the pudding.

    See? I still think you are all retards for debating the subject without executing it. Lookie there I flamed you all and I wasn't "Anonymous" but then I am. Perhaps that final lesson of the internet will be gleened from Enturb by some of you.
  6. anon7894 Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    I'd not really thought about how much harder it makes Co$'s job, but it's a good point.

    If someone consistently comes up with strong ideas, it's far more difficult for Co$ to know that it's the same person and to make additional efforts to identify them.

    Where they typically avoid taking on the substance of a discussion, it's impossible for them to use the "coming from someone who thought X,Y,Z was a good idea," or "just because you clearly think you're something special" type of approach to discredit or distract from what's actually being said.

    Also just as I'm sure Tamphex tries to be very aware of people appearing deeply committed to the fight who happen to have "just the right skills" so as to be indispensable to him. I'm sure that on some level the most blatant plants are meant to lull us into a false sense of security (oh man, they're just sooo dumb!!!) whilst other's slowly steadily plod away, building up an image of being someone to listen to and to be respected.

    Although the idea should be all that counts, it's inevitable that if 2 or 3 "respected" members of the group dismiss an idea, I'm probably more inclined to think "ok, if they think that, then maybe it's not all I thought it was" or similar (and vice versa). Advertisers know this only too well. Although no-one really feels that they're swayed by Tiger Woods promoting a product, most of us do think "if he's prepared to take money from them, it can't be too bad," plus the far more powerful subconscious buttons it pushes.

    Stripping away those factors definitely helps us. It'll be interesting to see what happens with it tbh.
  7. Anonymous Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    ^^^Sheeet...meant to press the anon button there :grin:
  8. Gunslinger Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    TL;DR? - You think I'm an OSA plant and the CoS would LOVE to eliminate FA, because it wouild make it easier to I.D. and Fair game Anons on this website.

    Where do I begin to completely tear you a new one for this post?

    First of all - lurk more. Not only is calling somone an OSA plant, or spy (even as a "Devil's Advocate") something that has been regularly discouraged by the Mods of Enturb - anyone who had even the basic internet skills can look at my history of posts and decide for themself whether or not I'm a member of this insidious, life-wrecking, mind-control cult which is nothing more than an elaborate pyramid scheme thought up by a homophobic, delusional and possibly psychotic megalomaniac hack science fiction writer. (You show me a member of the OSA who can say all THAT and not end up seriously downstat for a full year, and I'll paint his car for $59.99)

    Second - the idea that the CoS dislikes "anonymous posting" is not only pretty obvious, it falls under the category of the most "Duh!" statements ever made. You win the title of Captain Obvious on this one. But what you - and many others - seem to forget is that ALL posters on this site are "ANONYMOUS" (expect for the ones who namefag themselves, of course) I mean - do you think my REAL name is "Gunslinger?" Is Skeptic1337's last name "1337"? Is that Irish? Sounds Irish.

    If anything, OSA plants or spies on this site - :tinfoil: - would LOVE 'forced anonymous'. Then THEY would be able to do all of the things you just described. Just one of them could pretend to be a half a dozen "Anonymous" creating a veritable fantasy world of so-called ideas, discussion, arguments, counter-arguments, encouragements - AND persuasive and dissuasive posts designed to discourage certain activities. Hell, I've SEEN them try it on other sites - AND here in the dark ages of January and February (so long ago, wasn't it?)

    If it's any consolation - I'm totally at peace with this issue now. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I understand why some Anons like FA, why some dislike it, and why some others don't care either way. My questions have been answered to the fullness of my understanding. Honestly, I couldn't touch another bite. (burp)

    I will toss this out there - I will openly resist, object and in any way that I can thwart any and all attempts to make this site entirely 'forced anonymous.' You may be willing to accept the words of a "complete stranger" - but I see more wolves in sheep's clothing in that flock that others seem willing to.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    Je-e-e-E-zus! Quit already.

    If you don't want to post anonymously, then don't, okay? But if you're on the fence, give it a try and see what comes out of it, when we're focused on a REAL TOPIC for cryin' out loud.

    I've never been a channer or someone who's had an opportunity to be anonymous in the true sense, but I appreciate its possible benefits. I can't give any history on it, given my inexperience, but here's a prediction/mental simulation of some potential effects:




    Pros:
    • Can make suggestions anonymously
    • Can then argue both for and against suggestion in separate posts w/o wasting time explaining why you're being inconsistent, blahblah -- cuts the TL;DR factor sometimes
    • Can add arguments no one else has thought of without being namefagged as a smarty-pants or loudmouth
    • Others may feel more compelled to respond, as they are unaware that it's one person's work, and may weigh in to sway the consensus.
    • Less taking for granted that 100 people are already taking care of something, or that only one is. You have to do it to see the effect.
    • Criticism is obviously not personal, but a reaction to the idea/post itself, since no one knows who made it.
    • That leads to more willingness for anonymous posters to re-examine their own ideas and stay humble, looking for better ways to explain, rather than just getting defensive. If you can't win support for it, YOU'RE not being rejected -- your idea or skills are, and you can always refine both and come back later with no loss of credibility
    • Some people are better at finding holes in arguments than in building them, and vice versa, and both are important functions -- Anonymous posting will allow those hole-finders to operate without looking like Negative Nancy's and consequently being disregarded.
    • Ideas are generated for their own sake, rather than for credit, making it less of a social club and more an idea-refining machine
    • More of a likelihood that people would use the fuckin' search button before posting new threads, since there's no "first in!" incentive
    • Reduces cliquishness -- no one's the boss, no one's the leader -- the ideas are all
    • Less likelihood of bad ideas getting too much attention because they're posted by someone respected for previous good ideas (less bias)
    Cons:
    • Can lead to extended flame wars (risk reduced by mods' ability to identify unhelpful pot-stirrers).
    • Function is weakened by the fact that some will participate anonymously, some won't, leading to greater chance of individual identification, and gloryhogging by people who WANT credit
    • Trolling
    • Less bonding, no way to make online buds if all are anonymous
    • A few active people making a thread look like it has more interest and support than it does
    • Risk of scaring off noobs and conventional thinkers because anonymity can cause wild west mentality -- things may move quickly, crudely, and sometimes in truly offensive directions.
    • Provides cover for dickheads (which I have no problem with, really -- they'll get boo-ed off the stage)
    • Hard to gauge numbers involved in certain efforts
    Now let's STFU about it, and do it or don't as we each choose.
    But can we quit discussing it endlessly, and getting all butthurt about people liking/not liking it. Who the fuck cares who likes it or who doesn't?

    If just "Anonymous" were in this thread, it'd all be over by now, and it wouldn't have seemed so personal, so there'd be more content, less bitching.

    Whoohoo for remembering to kill my signature before posting anonymously -- any fixes for that, guys?
  10. its.an0nym0us Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    A positive effect of posting anonymously is that you can post anonymously! ORLY?!
    People who are so long-winded as to defend themselves for critical analysis encompassing both sides of the argument are going to do just that, anonymous or not.

    Will happen anyway.

    What?
    You are suggesting that letting people think of ideas on their own, begin to implement them, and then spend more time meshing their work with others is somehow beneficial and not a waste of time? 100 individual threads with 1 post of work is not somehow more effective than 1 thread with 100 posts of work.
    True.

    Being hassled about stupid ideas and followed by namefagpolice also keeps the humble and well-spoken users around.

    A well-stated negative post is a well stated negative post no matter who is making the arguement.

    The people who want credit will make sure they get it, anonymous or not.

    There's still that excitement and urgency when you come across info, so this practice will most likely continue.
    There is still no boss and no leader. Your ideas are still out there, anonymous or not.
    There are plenty of bitchy, hole-finding anons, as you have already noted, that are more than willing to tackle the devil's advocate post even for the most 'respected' of posters. (Glosslip, Bunker, even Magoo)


    Mods will still be able to see account holders. But flame wars will happen anyway because people are ignorant and forget.

    Namecalling because some people are too lazy to post anonymously will lead to some stupid wastes of time, yes.


    People who need to bond with random people on the internet will still try to bond with random people on the internet.

    Post delays take care of this.

    That's what mods are for. But the lack of accountability (minor as it is, really) will encourage masses of distracting randomness.

    Mods will still be able to identify posters. People will still infiltrate.

    True.
  11. Anonymous Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    anonymous with bullet point pro/con sucks. Please do not underestimate the nature of people. They like credit and companionship.

    its.anon is very right

    this site is founded on beliefs that every poster has equal merit and that is the way the mods would like to keep it so why is anonymous better? it isn't
  12. Anonymous Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    If you don't want to talk about this - why the fuck did you post in this Thread?

    This is a "real" Topic for some of the people on this site. This Thread IS this Topic. Why did you post in THIS Thread if you didn't want to talk about THIS Topic?

    If you don't want to talk about it any more - then YOU shut the fuck up. Or do you think everyone has to do what you do? Nazi.

    And "who the fuck cares who likes it or doesn't"? Answer: "No one ASKED WHO likes it or doesn't. The question is WHY and WHAT good (or bad) it accomplishes. Clearly you don't give a shit anymore, but why do you think that means no one else does?

    Unless, of course, you're one of those who've already posted in this Thread, and made your point very clear - and now you want the debate ended so no one else can come in and contradict you? Another purpose anonymous posting serves - those afraid of criticism can always squash it by repeating their one opinion as if it were the opinions of many.
  13. Anonymous Member

    Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    THREAD NECROMANCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  14. Re: Bringing anonymous to enturbulation

    This has been done and failed.

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