BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I thought the vast majority of Sea Org worked in California and Florida.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Acutally when they voted to raise the min wage it was uncertain if the vote removed the expemtion:

Fisher & Phillips LLP - Solutions at Work - Florida Voters Pass Minimum Wage Amendment

But they do pay taxes, and that is at least a portion that the cult will not get back.

they have a lot at FLAG but i believe there are more orgs in CA than FL.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

My primary position (6-7 years of 13 years and the rest were all administrative anyway) was Investigations and Evaluations Director -- of which there is definitely a secular equivalent. I was responsible to find out "Why" Management wasn't doing it's job when parts of it weren't. IE. They aren't making enough money, I would get an email to go investigate.... write "handlings" and "programs" to fix.

Definitely not a religious activity.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Its a religious activity if your religion worships money.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Any news on what little was ruled on yesterday?

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I think it would be closer to Narconon than sea org

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

While the courts would have been unlikely to be able to look into that situation on their own without an objection from Lisa McPherson or a state administrative agency, if an injunction is entered against Scientology on the federal level prohibiting this particular labor practice, their mandate to enforce their injunction is much broader in scope. While there is still an issue of who would have standing (and incentive) to try to enforce the injunction, it could get them in more trouble than the original violation of the law. Deliberate schemes to evade it could constitute civil or even criminal contempt, even if those actions would not, by themselves, have been in violation of law before the court enjoined them.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

What's your hurry? There's still plenty of time for your stat to crash before Thursday at 2.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I've been thinking that would be the case, although IANAL, and I further expect that, entirely beyond the strict question of legality, it would open them up to severe PR footbulletry.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

/r/ update

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

read the first post brainiac

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Alamo is good case. Argument for distinguishing it is that the cos's money making activities do "not serve the general public in competion with ordinary commercial enterprises." The cos will argue that its products and services are unique to the religion and simply advance the religion, and thus, that they are not in competition with other businesses. Indeed, in light of copywrites, no other entity can compete.

Lots of counter arguments to this, I just wanted to point out how alamo differs-- in alamo they were producing normal goods, rather than coursework attendant to their religion.

Of course, lots of cos material can best be catagorized as self help material, in competition with other entities.

Further, the claim that the cos is not in competition simply because they would sue under its ip rights is a questionable application.

Regarding statute of limitations, there are possibly issues of equitable estoppel, were the cos may be prevented from raising this defense on given claims.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I don't believe the discussion with regard to competition will turn on the goods produced (but yes, Scientology will argue as much) so much as--in this case--the means to make the goods. I researched this awhile back and posted here, from which I'll quote:

As to the similarities between Golden Era Productions and Alamo, they both drastically underpaid and overworked their employees while providing them with housing and every other amenity imaginable. However, the individual businesses in Alamo operated in secular spheres--that is, their service stations, retail clothing stores, and motels directly and unfairly competed with corresponding secular entities, for whom the option to underpay its workers did not exist. Scientology will no doubt argue that Golden Era is engaged in promotional activities as opposed to commercial, and there is therefore no risk of unfair competition--it does not compete because it is the only entity that produces in L Ron Hubbard videos, and its adherents the only targeted class, unlike, say, a motel, which would target every demographic.

The response to this, I would think, is to note that the type of work Headley was engaged in at Golden Era--video production--is work also typically performed by secular entities, who otherwise might benefit from being contracted by Scientology for this work, and are thus in fact harmed in an unfair competition sense. The issue is not the content of the business's output or the output's target audience, in other words, but rather the type of business and whether there is a secular analogue capable and available to perform the same work.

This notion has some legal precedent too--In Mitchell v. Pilgrim Holiness Church Corp., 210 F.2d 879 (7th Cir. 1954), a religious organization operated and staffed a printing press, from which it printed "pamphlets, leaflets, magazines and other printed material most of which is of a religious nature," and argued because religious message was not commerce, it should be exempt from the FLSA. The [STRIKE]Fifth[/STRIKE] Seventh Circuit concluded that the religious content of the pamphlets was of no consequence, and that "[there is no] intimation that the minimum standard of living as fixed by the Act is not just as necessary to the health and well-being of the defendant's employees as it is to the health and well-being of the employees of any other printing establishment."

Mitchell is almost perfectly analogous to Golden Era, which too is a publisher of religious material utilizing underpaid labor. California is not bound to follow a federal [STRIKE]Fifth[/STRIKE] Seventh Circuit decision, of course, but with so little case law speaking directly to this issue, it seems likely that the Court will at least confront Mitchell, if not be persuaded by it.

Since this case was moved from California state court to federal court, Mitchell is more likely to be persuasive, although it doesn't have to be followed, given that it's in another circuit.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

^^ good arguments.

I can only issue spot here because of employment obligations.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

All the armchair legal arguments are fascinating, but what the hell happened in the real world of the courtroom yesterday?

Any feedback?

BFG?

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

from OP:

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

If you idiots would read the thread you would have your answer.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Yes thanks for asking this. Anybody know what transpired yesterday?

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

No hearings were held yesterday. Nothing happened yesterday.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Thanks. Sorry I missed that. Sorry about lying about being sorry.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I lol'd. ^^

Also, I still lol when I remember that someone thought you and H-T were the same person. Ask H-T to tell you about it. lol

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Thread title changed.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

A small post saying this could not harm, as few people go back to OP.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

The OP has already been quoted above.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I am not blind. Thanks. It was more like a general statement on how to proceed in such a case.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Well, thanks for your gratuitous advice, even though it didn't apply to this thread.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

lmao


<3

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

My pleasure.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Step 1 - cover your self in flammable liquid
Step 2-

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Um, Mods, can we get back on topic please. TD has plenty of room for more useless bickering.

kthanxbye

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

So interesting.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Wonder what your employers think about your lying... bitch.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

In relation to Mitchell and Alamo, it might be good to point out that one part of what they produce and print is LRH fiction, in both book and audio form, which is sold to the general public. The fiction bit is sold under the name "Galaxy Press" now, but it remains to be seen how "real" this separation is, and back in the days when these people worked in Scientology the books were printed by the same pubs orgs with the stated purpose of recruiting people by putting LRH's name out there. At least that's what they told the IRS.

They also told the IRS that LRH fiction was a very small part of their revenue, but it might be good to ask if the reality is that Bridge Publications over-charges for the "religious" printing in order to make it look like LRH fiction is less of their income. Since Bridge Publications is part of Scientology, they can bill the other Scientology entities with high printing costs and give the money back to those other orgs by paying them "consulting fees" or whatever.

What really matters is what percentage of volume which is LRH fiction books printed for the general public.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

There are are also Narconon, Criminon, TWTH, Applied Scholastics, CCHR, etc etc materials, in other words, all the 'secular' materials.

In the leaked Narconon booklets, it says "Published by Bridge Publications, Inc."

Revenue from unrelated business income (non-religious) must be disclosed in form 990-T by Bridge Publications. So far, I didn't find such a filing yet.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

publication of Tony Alamo's people produced goods that competed with secular companies. Mitchell involved promotional religious tracts.

But what about the staff at Gold Base who do the grunt work; the dining hall crew, landscapers, weeders, trash picker uppers, security?

Are these positions not competing with the large pool of laborers in Riverside County?

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

You mean like the ones that are out picking up trash as seen on Google Maps street view outside Gold? Always makes my lulz.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

Not sure if this is useful or not.

In the UK many charitable (tax-exempt) activities, c.w. medical research, education, special needs groups, and religion, are run by volunteers who work for nothing. They are not paid, not even the minimum wage, though they may claim their expenses. The important point is that they are mostly retired people who live on their pensions, or unemployed married women who live on what their husbands earn and who can afford to donate their time. Behind the scenes there are a few administrative staff who are paid whatever it takes to recruit them. Sometimes a devoted professional may work for less than the going rate but there is no way of confusing the volunteers with the employees.

In most churches the ministers or priests are also paid enough to support a wife and family. I think only the Catholic church expects its priests to be celibate 'volunteers', who reject private property and live on a pittance.

By this logic, if SO members have no independent income, they cannot be considered volunteers giving a few hours a week.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I spoke with a Catholic canon lawyer in Washington DC recently about this. She said that the religious workers are paid minimum wage.

re: BFG and CSI Judgment Is In

I think the important part is it is not just the duties, I think that part of it is the timing of responsibilities. For example once you volunteer you re signed up for life and longer. You have to show up at certain times and do what is required of you. It is not "we need someone to rake the leaves on Saturday" it is "go rake the leaves and when you are finished, start painting the fence."