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A small idea from a total newb

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by AnonymIceland, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. AnonymIceland Member

    A small idea from a total newb

    Been lurking at ED, Partvan, and Enturb for quite a while, haven't contributed anything yet since(as my username indicates) there are no Scientologists in my country.

    But I just wanted to throw this out: for Operation Reconnect, should anons reach out to publicly recognizable sceptics/debunkers/real scientists to come down to the pickets as guest speakers? It would IMO not hurt the whole point of these protests being anonymous as long as these people would be presented as "friends of Anonymous".

    Some names I think might be interested in being involved

    Penn Jilette
    The Amazing Randi(James Randi)
    Sam Harris

    And in the UK: Richard Dawkins

    Thoughts? Fail? Win?
  2. iaxiloll Member

    Holy Xenus !! How lucky can you be ?
  3. Whanonstler Member

    I knew I liked Iceland for more than the crazy sexy viking chicks like Bjork and Silvia Nott!
  4. AnonymIceland Member

    Well I cant swear 100% that there are no individual Scientologists, but as far as I know, there is no organized presence or office. Icelanders tend to have a fairly low tolerance for bullshit in general, and the small size of the population helps. Disconnection from family members would be common knowledge throughout society immediately since everybody is in one way or another connected to everybody else.

    IDK how the proper procedure there is here for contacting individuals in the buisness of debunking charlatans, scams etc, but would it be a faux pas if I shot an e-mail towards some of the people I mentioned encouraging them to attent Operation Reconnect, with links to Enturbulation and some of the other sites?
  5. Hectapus Member

    IMO I don't think having them at Operation Reconnect would be helpful (due to the reuniting, rather than dispelling nature of the protest). It would be very, very beneficial to get them involved with the movement, though. I say go for it, but don't pressure them too hard on a 4/12 committment.
  6. albinocat Member

    Could you protest on April 12th in solidarity to our global event ? That would be so cool to have Iceland on our map :)
  7. AnonymIceland Member

    I´ll protest for sure, or at least hand out flyers or leaflets in the City Center, but I´m not located in Iceland ATM, and won't be on April 12th.

    I´m not going to reveal my current location, but there is one Dianetics center in this country, but not in the city I am located in.
  8. anon5754 Member

    Mods moved a post about contacting Richard Dawkins to the Wall of Shame due to it being a first post and included a link, I think this was unnecessary and shat all over a very good idea.
    I propose it should be moved back and unlocked as there is potentially some milage in this. Project Chanology has some support with the atheists over on the Richard Dawkins Foundation forums, I remember reading a thread over there back in Feb where 3 people claimed they were going to the London protests.

    Providing Dawkins with information on Scientology may actually prompt him to write or talk about it as an example of a dangerous cult. Even though he will use it in his own propaganda campaign against all religion, it would be a massive victory to have an intellectual heavyweight like Dawkins speak out against Scientology.
  9. endCOSsoon Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I think this is a great idea. One thing though, try to understand what Dawkins, Dennet, Harris etc. are in favour of; that is critical thinking and the scientific method.

    By definition everyone here agrees with the principle of peer review. These people are natural allys.
  10. XenuLovesU Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I, for one, would love to see Penn & Teller or James Randi onboard.

    FWIW -- James Randi has taken a few potshots at Scientology before. Nothing big though.

    Penn & Teller would be Epic. I find it odd that their show, "Bullshit" hasn't tackled the subject of Scientology yet, since it's so inherently stupid and funny.

    If you feel like contacting these folks -- go right ahead! You don't need Anon's permission to do so. In any case, I "vote" yes.
  11. anon5754 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Not sure if Dennett would touch something like this, he'd see the spiritual beliefs of Scientology as complete ignorance built on Dualism which he has already debunked.

    Harris and Dawkins have recent anti-religious books to sell though.
    Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist with a chip on his shoulder over Christian fundamentalists denying his life's work, and has taken to attacking religion. He may be interested in using Scientology as an example of a modern cult and the start of a new religion.

    Original thread is here-
    http://forums.whyweprotest.net/showthread.php?t=3767

    OP banned and thread moved by bigfatspacko_uk, I'll PM him and ask if it can be moved back here and unlocked.
  12. WCCube Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Getting well-known people like scientists and what-not could be dangerous for them. Any well-known person, be it a celebrity, scientist, or what-not will be personally attacked by Scientology.

    Now, I know the OP wanted skeptics and what-not, but pretty much every well-known Scientology skeptic has come around at least one picket, or mentioned it, so we know they're on board.
  13. UltraSquirrel Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Anonymous is every faith and no faith.

    It is not a place for militant atheists to get yet another platform, anymore than it would be for Wahabi Islamists decrying Scientology as a symptom of the decadent heathen west. Nor would it be appropriate for a Christian to stand outside and invite everyone inside Co$ to reconnect with Jesus.

    Further, Dawkins arrival would be an epic fail. It would prove to many that Anonymous was just a pack of anti-religious bigots, which is exactly what CoS has been saying.

    Besides, if the poll numbers are any indication, a lot of Anon are religious people and wouldn't exactly have any great respect for Dawkins, Harris et al.
  14. A_nonchalant Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Ultrasquirrel said exactly what I was going to say. While Richard Dawkins' platform may ostensibly be critical thinking and the scientific method, his rhetoric is inflammatory. "The God Delusion"? Hmm, who else do we know who called God a delusion? Right, L. Ron Hubbard and his R6 implant.
    I'm not saying Dawkins = Hubbard, not even remotely, but he is a very divisive figure. Anonymous does include many religious people, and many people who are not religious but still do not appreciate demagogues who play hardball with their lapsed or former religious affiliations.
    I suggest you focus energy on getting pamphlets and press folders out to scientists and doctors in general. When we build enough awareness, these guys will come on their own.

    Penn & Teller did (and do) want to run an episode of "Bullshit!" on Scientology, but were told repeatedly that they could not do so by their producers, because Scientology would crack down on their asses. If Anonymous keeps going, there is a very real chance we could ease the pressure to the point where Penn & Teller could make their show.
  15. WMAnon Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    From what I have heard Penn and Teller's already overtaxed lawyers have forbidden a Scientology episode for fear of massive raep. I think with all the pressure Anonymous is putting on the church, though, they may have a rare window of opportunity to get their bullshit on while CoS is chasing other problems. If someone has the contact info, I fully support this.

    As for getting people to speak at protests, I think it's best if we save that for the ex-scientologists and others who have more experience with CoS, instead of handing the mic over to someone who just joined yesterday but is somewhat famous.
  16. Anonabliss Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I agree. I think the religion is bullshit. Actially, I think all religion is bullshit, however they have a right to believe in it and this is not about shooting down anybody's beliefs, its about making the management responsible for illegal actions toward their members and critics.
  17. Hectapus Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Werd
  18. rasputin Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    while there are problems with Anonymous being directly linked to folks like Dawkins due to his polarising influence, trying to contact him to talk about Scientology himself is a different matter and IMO would be positive.

    Ditto for Christian groups - Anonymous being seen as leading Scientologists to Christianity, bad, Christians speaking out against Scientology as a result of being passed info by Anonymous, good.
  19. Spot Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I emailed Randi (per suggestion of mods on JRef forums) but got no response. He did flame the shit out of scientology in his next newsletter though (and us too, for being "crude," but not by name.)
  20. AnonymIceland Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I just want to make one thing clear: I totally understand that Richard Dawkins is a controversial figure, and that many Anons are people of faith and thus don't like his writings.

    BUT.

    Dawkins is an exceptionally intelligent man and an eloquent speaker. He is also quite the celebrity in the UK, which is where he would lend his weight, if he does at all.

    The reason his name popped into my head is because he touched on a topic VERY similar to Operation Reconnect in The God Delusion, the story Edgardo Montara, a jewish boy in Italy who was kidnapped in 1858 by agents of the Papal Inquisition because his Catholic nanny had baptized him, fearing the boy who was ill at the time would die and go to hell.
    The poor boy was not allowed to see his parents unless they converted to Catholicism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

    Incidentally, large-scale protests over this case, not just by jews but Italians in general altered Catholic-Jewish relations to the better. In the end, the church changed. Am I the one seeing parallels here?

    It is obvious from Dawkin's chapter on this case in his book that he was personally deeply touched by Montara's story. I´m sure he can put aside his opinions on religion in general and speak VERY effectively on the issue if it is brought to his attention that the CoS practices TODAY policies that even in the mid-1800s were considered outmoded and medieval.
  21. UnknownEntity Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Richard Dawkins might actually be interested in anonymous for another reason - it is the perfect example of his meme-theory
  22. AnonNow Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Let me get this straight? We can have numerous threads about getting Christians involved, getting Catholics involved, reaching out to other religions, there have been threads on reaching out the the Jews, even getting Mormons involved...but we are not allowed to get The Atheist community or their figureheads involved 'cos it might upset some people? That's a joke really!
    Dawkins would be a perfect speaker for the UK, he is well known and well respected here (in a mostly secular country) and knows more about the ways religion/cults work than most people here and about how they indoctrinate followers.
    A thread on contacting Dawkins is no more offensive and has no more place in the WOS than the thread on contacting Mormon leaders.
    Personally, I don't think he would do it anyway, it's a bit out of his remit to focus on any one religion, but that's not the point. If you're going to reach out to various religious communities and their leaders you damn well better treat the Athiests (who, according to the poll thread, make up the MAJORITY here) with the same considerations.

    So, just read the thread that was WOS'd, if it was WOS'd for 'advertising'., it's debatable, but fair enough. My point still stands though, if people are religious and don't like Dawkins then whatever, but don't baaawww when people want to contact him 'cos the Atheists haven't baaawww'd when contacting other cult leaders has been discussed.
  23. anonisfinetoo Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb


    How about Phil Platt of www.badastronomy.com? He's another popular skeptic online (and is fairly well known in the skeptic community). I was thinking of him especially on account of some of LRH's cosmology of the universe having events that extend waaaay beyond the accepted scientific age of 13.7 billion years, not to mention his bullshit treatment of radition and so on.

    Bonus... Phil lives in Boulder IIRC so maybe he'd like to attend a protest there. :) I saw Feb 10th vids from there but not Mar 10th.
  24. AnonymIceland Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Too right you are! I had totally forgotten about that....

    I sent him an e-mail, curious to see if he´ll answer.
  25. ThatNateGuy Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I support getting Dawkins involved if only just to hear what he has to say on the matter.

    Also, AnonymIceland, just a random comment but you guys must have an excellent education system over in Iceland. Your English is fantastic!
  26. AnonymIceland Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Thank you, much appreciated.

    So far I´ve contacted Dawkins and hunted around for contact info for Penn & Teller, but without success...

    It might be better if someone familiar with Platt's work contacted him, I wouldn't want to come off as insincere, but I support contacting anyone who's respected in the field of scepticism in general.
  27. kingler5 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I must echo those thoughts exactly, for the record, I am Christian. But Anonymous is not here to force religious views, anonymous has nothing to do with religion except for the fact that the $cienos call themselves a religion.

    Getting Dawkins involved would most likely be bad, since he would most likely on a side note just be bigoted against all religions, which we all know that Co$ isn't even.

    You can debate this alot but the fact is that bringing in atheism or atheists does start to make this religious, which it is not.

    Best case scenario that would NEVER happen would be Dawkins at our protest hand in hand with a major Christian leader and both of them saying something like "We both agree that Scientology is not a religion!!!" That would be epic lulz.

    I really do wish we could do more with the fact that anonymous is comprised of 'all faiths and no faiths' cause that really highlights the diversity of the group and the universal ideas that we share about what Co$ really is...
  28. kingler5 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    You make a fair point but generally alot of people percieve Dawkins as an active attacker of all religions most of the time, even some atheists, whereas a vast majority of world religious leaders aren't known for attacking all other viewpoints.

    Dawkins would be the ultimate anon footbullet cause he is so anti-religious it would very much bolster Co$'s claim of us being religious bigots. That's why DON'T drag religion into this cause we all know that Co$ is not a religion and that's part of the reason some of us are here.

    BTW that religion poll should've NEVER HAPPENED, its starting what could be the process of anonymous collapsing in on itself, and I can tell you that knowledge of that poll has already made some anon's uneasy about staying with this movement.

    Look at it this way, you get Dawkins on board, ok maybe he'll bring some more atheists to the cause. But how many Christian or Muslim anons will you lose in the process? There's no way to know, that is the nature of this group, when we start attaching famous names and faces (even as friends of anonymous), that also attaches ideas besides those related to the Co$, we lose our anonymity, more anons drop out and then anons start having more in common than just activism against Co$, THAT IS BAD, that should be our lowest common denominator and nothing else should even be close, even ideas as basic and generalized as you might think atheism is..

    Also think about people like WBM, he never touches religion, and carries no stigma related to that whatsoever so everybody loves him, also ex-scientologists are great for us. But they are the one exception, because the reason they are famous, or will be famous is central to our cause. Lets MAKE OUR OWN celebrities, we are already starting with faces like WBM, Magoo, Lerma, and Jenna Hill Miscavige. They are already coming to our protests, just let them gain their own recognition, we just need more time, and more protests and more videos!!!

    The bottom line must be this WE MUST STAY THE COURSE, WHAT WE ARE DOING IS WORKING, if you try and 'IMPROVE' it and think about it too much it will stray away from what it originally was and get too many other agendas attached and people will split off....
  29. Re: A small idea from a total newb


    Uh, no... EXCLUDING atheism or atheists would start to make this religious. However, I fully agree that Richard Dawkins would be an unfortunate choice, much as I respect and follow his work, due to his perceived agenda.

    If he could be shown in such a light that would make it clear he was against the organisation of Co$ and not the 'religiosity' (which would get lumped in with everything else), it'd be great, but I sincerely think that'd be impossible :(

    BTW, does this make Anonymous a Non-Prophet Irreligious Disorganisation? - with apologies to Bob Wilson et al... :p
  30. AnonNow Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I actually agree with pretty much everything you said there, especially that the poll was a REALLY bad idea.
    My points were made more on principal than practice, and as I said I think Professor Dawkins would decline anyway.
    But you say getting Dawkins involved might alienate Christians or Muslims, but getting, say, Christian leaders involved might alienate Muslims, Muslim leaders Christians etc...
    Although my point was made on principal, my actual opinion is that we should be getting NO religious (or non-religious) (or political for that matter) leaders involved. I just took offence to a thread about getting atheist leaders involved was slammed whilst threads about getting religious leaders involved are considered reasonable discussion.
    I think here (and on other threads) peoples fear of the religious biggot tag (they aren't a religion BTW) is blinding them and will hinder work that need to be done. The biggot tag is probably the single best weapon Co$ has, and they are using it, and it is working.
  31. anon5754 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I personally think that if we're to represent our actual population then the opinions of religious bigots such as myself should be represented, to say that there aren't any anons who think that all religions are a pack of lies would be dishonest. I personally support Dawkins and agree with his idea of faith being a bad thing, that religion is a poisonous mind virus, and that no idea should go unchallenged because it's sacred.

    Most atheists would agree, and I don't think this PoV should be suppressed because of PR implications among people with faith. If Dawkins talked about Scientology it would be a win, and if the Co$ used this to tar us all with the same religious-bigot brush then it could be easily debunked by having anons of faith speak against it.
  32. GuyFux Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    We need Noam Chomsky on our side.
  33. kingler5 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I agree with you there, I actually meant to say that I dont support the idea of any religious leaders getting involved with us. I love the idea of some of my favorite famous Christians getting gung-ho about anti-Co$ but I dont want them in any way connected with anonymous. It almost boils down to the reason for seperation of church and state that we can all agree on, lets dub it separation of church and anonymous....

    if you guys wanna support dawkins thats fine, he has his theories on how religion's negative effect on people, but there was a study recently featured on the bbc that found religious people generally live perceived happier and satisfied lives... just thought id throw that out there for the dawkins wolves to tear apart....
  34. anon5754 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Ignorance is bliss :D
  35. AnonNow Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Again, complete agreement with you there. It's not why we came together so let's leave it out.

    Awww dude, we we're doing so well ;)
    I'm not going to take the bait, suffice to say a blissful lie is still a lie.
  36. kingler5 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Well, you don't need to call yourself a bigot(isnt that deragatory? no need to insult yourself!) And the fact is we ought not represent religious opinions whatsoever, thats why I and a few others thought that religious poll on here, while seemingly harmless, is a really bad idea and starts anonymous down a dangerous path, i can already see how some might get stirred up and leave the movement, thus forcing anonymous in on itself....

    No idea go unchallenged because its sacred? I completely agree that every aspect of life, even my own religious faith must be questioned and researched.. Is Darwin's theory of Evolution sacred? Can it be challenged? On a side note google ben stein's latest movie Expelled, it covers just this topic, actually dawkins himself is in it....

    ... then easily debunked by anons of faith speak out.... then they have to reveal a piece of personal info that should never have been brought up otherwise, not to mention the fact that prolly a good number of anons would already have left at that point for dawkin's involvement with anonymous... easily debunked, i dont think it would be easy, lets just not have to do any debunking in the first place by not having religion brought up... im currently eating my own words by even posting this but itd be nice if we could just kill this thread.... and collectively weed out any more well intentioned but unwise paths/suggestions... case in point: 'the religion poll'...
  37. kingler5 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    I know I'm sorry, thats just it, self fulfilling prophecy, somebody brings up religion in the slightest way, and we all find it hard to sit on our hands and keep our stinky opinions out of it...

    to quote a friend of mine " Opinions are like buttholes, everybody has got one, and it stinks..."

    our buttholes/opinions equally reek in each others' nostrils, which is why we must stamp them out!!!

    newayz i love all you guys.
  38. AnonNow Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    So I'm now going to stear the discussion away from religious debate...
    Watch me go!

    So I've been thinking about the embracing the religious bigot tag thing, I don't mean really embracing it, I mean embracing it in a satirical sense. Mocking it and making it our own and at the same time highlighting (and using it to highlight) the fact that Co$ is not a religion and was manoeuvred into such a position for tax and first amendment protection reasons, and in most countries (including mine thankfully) it is recognised for what it is.
    Hard to do, yes, but we could have fun with it and turn Co$ greatest weapon against them. And with individual religious believers amongst Anonymous it would be eaiser.
    Thoughts?
  39. kingler5 Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Can you elaborate? I always thought there could be some way we could play on their claim of religion... slogans like "Religion is free, $cientology isn't" hit home on that, is that what you are thinkin of? Or something else?

    I've said this before but as a Christian I am offended by their commandeered use of the Cross and the words church, minister, parishioner, etc... that really grinds my gears and I think it does alot of other people too.... almost makes me wish christian churches could give em a taste of their own medicine with copyright infringement sueing etc... but that would just be going down on their level....
  40. AnonNow Member

    Re: A small idea from a total newb

    Dunno, just a thought right now ;)
    Something that sends the sarcastic message "They call us religious bigots, if being a religious bigot means that I am opposed to a criminal organization that exploits and brainwashes it's members and only claimed the title 'religion' for tax reasons then, yeah, I am a religious bigot.......oh no, wait, that's not what it means, it means you are opposed to real religion, well I'm not then...dumasses!" kinda' thing.
    How we could do that is another matter.

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