A humble proposal.

Discussion in 'Support Questions' started by Anonymous, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    What pisses me off is the abuse of the 'Post Anonymously' tick box, am referring to Flaming/Trolling, Thread Spamming/Derailing and Personal Attacks etc.
  2. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    What would you suggest we do to limit abuse, and please also define what you consider abussive?
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Seeing as how thread got all serious (boo hiss):

    I don't like the idea of traditional style up/down voting for here at all.

    However, the idea of a 'this post is retarded' community flagging button, that gives the post a corner flag - in say, burnt umber, after a few votes, could be fun.

    As for infractions, either do or don't; but there's no point in a points system if no-one ever accumulates enough points to get a timeout.

    I quite like the idea of liberal infracting so it becomes no-big-deal - and short timeouts for naughty children who don't play nice (or are incessantly retarded); however I don't think that's supported by the powers-what-are,

    And so if infractions are not going to be used to mold behaviour, get rid of them all together, and just have 'yellow card' and 'red card' warnings - or not even warnings, but flags to the community that this was a bad post that needed a spanking.
    (and then 'manually' keep an eye on users with increasing numbers of flagged posts)
  4. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    everyone's a critic.

    If you want to raise the level of wit, be moar witty.
  5. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I think we both agree that the traditional up down voting is not something that can be used here.
    Bear with me on this one, but basically this is purely down-voting/flagging a post, once it goes over a certain treshold, it becomes becomes visually distinct from the others --right? How do you suggest we avoid abuse of this, e.g several people flagging a post of someone they dislike?

    It is very rare for the points system to trigger a ban, people really have to misbehave a lot to get banned by accumulating infraction points.
    Usually infractions aren't a big deal, but some people... take them pretty seriously, do you think they would react differently to red and yellow cards?
  6. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Yeah well you know what i am going to see it through a new rule is made against making suggestions that result in us mod having to pay attention to the site for more than a minute, because clearly you are wasting our time with your self entitled right to criticism, you *#%$
    I hear you, that is what gets me tho, a fair share of people seem to have had enough of those "jokes" yet they keep resurfacing all the time, and why does everyone have to be a comedian anyway? are we in liverpool or something?

    [ame=]YouTube - BRENDAN BURNS ON LIVERPOOL..[/ame]
  7. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I'm more bothered by posts or threads that are very argumentative without offering anything new. The same old arguments never resolved because no one offers evidence or considers an opposing view. Happens mostly on certain controversial topics.
  8. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    That's nothing new or unique to WWP. Nature of the medium.

    Moving a thread to the dome works well IMO.
  9. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    You both have to admit that it is partially in our nature to gossip. I suspect most of the old arguments that are being referred to are the likes of : This Person is this and that or has done so and so. Am i right?

    The thing with doming such threads is that sometimes actual new information is domed along side it.
  10. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    The Life Cycle of A List

  11. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I think that the quoted post is pretty accurate, except that forums are different from mailing lists and that we thus can avoid most of the problems listed in number 5 and 6a.

    We can have sub forums where for example speculation is not as heavily frowned upon, we can more and clearer offtopic forums if necessary. This was something that was technically impossible for mailing lists. All that could possibly stand in the way is the community itself, case in point: certain types of jokes are annoying to users, but many won't mention the nuisance because "it is part of our roots" or something like that.
  12. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Yes, it's ad hominem speculation and all that can be said has been said over and over and over. Reiterations of old arguments are frustrating.
  13. Re: A humble proposal.

    Yes I do like the idea of segregating crazy from not crazy but the problem is going to be the same as it is now: sometimes the offender doesn't know or doesn't understand the difference.

    So this forum would operate sort of like a dome for tinfoil? I suppose this could be a good solution if people didn't get too offended when we move their posts.

    If we want to do this, can we just re-purpose ysosrs? Nobody uses it right now.

    This is kind of how I feel about it. People take infractions waaay too seriously. At first I was giving lots of infractions and didn't realize how personal people take them. You really have to try hard to get enough points to get banned. Since I've had the red name I can only recall three times when a user was banned due to accumulation of infractions. The recipient was Herro all three times.

    They might if the caveats in the infraction text explained more clearly what the consequences of (or really lack thereof) getting carded are. Also they need to be more obvious. I've always thought part of reducing the drama element of infractions would have to be making it more obvious what kinds of things get infractions.
  14. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I completely forgot about Ysosrs even existing, i think it was meant for offtopic discussion but never really worked. Would you reckon anyone would miss it?
  15. Miranda Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Sort of like the dome and sort of not. In my opinion intelligent speculation is very valuable--a way of brainstorming. Maybe speculative posts that have that kind of merit could be moved or copied to a tinfoil forum for more thought--specifically, to see whether they can be documented or further developed into useful arguments. I don't see it as punitive--more as a way to give speculation its rightful place, to use it purposefully if possible, and to reduce its derailing or cheapening impact on other threads.

    Useless or destructive speculation could get a warning or light infraction.

    I agree that some people take infractions too seriously but having been on the other side of that elsewhere, I understand why. It stings, especially if you don't have a lot of respect for the person issuing the infraction. What I could do without is the hate PM's. I don't mind discussing an infraction but hate having to wince every time I get a PM notification.
  16. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    That is one hell of a sentence right there^^ Like the energizer bunny that. It just goes on and on...
  17. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    That what?
  18. Re: A humble proposal.

    Doubt it.

    It was supposed to be something like a SFW dome, but since that doesn't really work and the fact that the threads don't show up in Latest Posts nothing happens in there. If we actually want it to work like a "tinfoil dome" I think that we could actually start doing that right now without even violating the spirit in which it was created, though I think it would be in our best interest to attach some sort of disclaimer to it.

    The threads will have to show up in Latest Posts to get people to actually engage in discussion in there. Is there a way to make the threads from one forum show up as a different color or with a different icon? I suppose that might take some significant server side trickery.
  19. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Have whatever mod is on duty insert an asterisk at the begining of every new thread title (assuming the users forget or won't play along)?
  20. Miranda Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    If a post is removed or copied to a tinfoil forum, maybe a message to that effect could be left at its original location? Would that help?
  21. Re: A humble proposal.

    I suppose that would do, but it's rather inelegant.
  22. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Dare i say the dome doesn't need a SFW little brother anymore? The dome lost its appeal a long time ago. If you asked me i'd say it just sits there as memorabilia.

    I am more a proponent of keeping the speculation publicly accessible, but with a clearly visible disclaimer. Something along the lines of: this section of the site is meant for speculation, reader discretion is advised in determining the veracity of anything said here.

    I really think that encouraging constructive speculation, will have far better results than reprimanding and denigrating people for speculating. People want to discuss new theories, and want to offer new possibilities. How many times do we see "inb4 tinfoil infraction" in posts? Don't you think it is bit insulting to confine these people straight off the bat in a more or less locked down forum?
  23. Miranda Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Again, I don't think it should be punitive. It should be a place to give more attention to theories and to develop them.
  24. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I agree, i just felt that rufus's suggestion was a bit condemnatory and wanted to clear that up with him.
  25. sheeple Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Could there be a box to check for speculative content, much like there is one to post anonymously? So that the post could be easily distinguished as speculative, but could still remain in the original thread?
    The poster could click the box themselves, however mods could click the box on posted posts as they see fit?
  26. xenubarb Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    NO U!!11!!
  27. Miranda Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    That would be good--then speculative posts copied to a tinfoil forum could remain in the original spot but be easy to skip if users don't want to bother with them.
  28. Re: A humble proposal.

    Actually I'm right there with you. I only meant it would be similar to the dome in that it is a part of the site that has markedly different rules and code of conduct.
    That's not what I'm suggesting. It wouldn't be punitive in reality but in perception it probably would be as "separate is inherently not equal."
  29. Re: A humble proposal.

    Well let's be real here.

    The problem is not with the act of speculation itself, it is speculation without solid enough facts on which to base that speculation.

    There are people who have, at the very least, a different standard for what they consider to be concrete enough evidence to base a hypothesis on.

    My biggest problem with making a speculation only forum and restricting "speculation" to that forum is that it is seriously restricting a lot of perfectly reasonable discourse.
  30. Miranda Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I understand what you mean, but maybe it wouldn't be if it was presented properly and was part of a larger movement toward less punishment and more engagement.
  31. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Sounds pretty good, might require some server side work but it is an interesting idea.
    Ok, i misunderstood your intention my apologies. That being said it would be nice to hear back from forum users. Whether they think a separate speculation forum is a good thing, and how regular speculators would perceive having their posts moved there.

  32. Re: A humble proposal.

    Yeah, it sure got red in here all of a sudden.
  33. sheeple Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Maybe even allow users to put all posts flagged as Speculative on their ignore list without adding the actual poster to their list?
  34. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Ok I'll contribute a non-red opinion. As Mods will know I'm mostly a lurker, not much of a poster, and really only use wwp as a source of activism ideas that I mostly conduct privately in any event.

    It appears to me that some posters take themselves a little too seriously and get all butthurt about infractions and even some other members disagreeing with them. I wouldn't want a Mod job for all the tea in China. Overall y'all strike me as having the patience of Job.

    How many members are chased away by perceived heavy-handed modding vs a perceived free-for-all? It's the sweet spot between the two that obviously would work best. Since active members are still here actively accomplishing things, and since I know we've gone through periods where Mod recruitment has been a challenge, I don't see a problem with the Mods trying a plan that they might recommend.

    Course all us members know you're all Nazi faggots anyway. We need to have someone to complain about.

    If chanology has taught me anything, its to not take myself too seriously. Thanks guys. <3
  35. Re: A humble proposal.

    Somehow I can't picture this ending in anything but really schizophrenic discussion.
  36. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I think that's unlikely - for the most part the community is well behaved. Mods could easily identify such patterns of behaviour (show downvoter names to mods only, and easily (say on hover over the flag)) - Also, ration them maybe? That way people think twice before clicking.

    I've always felt part of the problem was that infractions don't come with a big friendly message telling folk: "getting infractions is a normal part of the give and take of the site, and the mods like to play nazi sometimes, but getting butthurt over a low-value infraction just makes you look butthurt." (maybe worded a touch differently - or maybe not). If people EXPECTED to get infractions they'd get less wound up - and if they REALLY can't get over it, fuck'em. I think people should get a playful infraction just for joining up rather than playing outside in the sun.

    Having said all that, assuming that point infractions will be dropped anyhow (because it only makes sense if it leads to people backing off being stupid due to impending timeout), the same point applies to red/yellow cards. The message is important - everyone should know upfront that getting carded occasionally is just something that happens. Oh, and create a 'situation room' for appeals in ysosrs.

    I guess basically I'm saying making light of it, in a self-site-depreciating humorous way, up front, loud, and often, is the best way to defuse the upset that warnings etc cause some people (like me when I got my first one). If someone STILL gets upset, give them a place to vent, but they deserve a public mocking.

    I think I just said the same thing three times :(
  37. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I would like a more clearly defined appeals process. Rationing "votes" on posts might work too, although there are people who are gunning for other people or just trolling. So I'm not as convinced about that one.
  38. sheeple Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Yeah, I see your point, however I assume many users have ignore lists already, and yet somehow most threads seem (relatively) sane.
    Maybe this proposal, if implemented, would result in a whole new level of hidden posts though. I have no idea about the percentage of posts that are considered speculative, or the number of users that would choose to ignore speculative posts.
  39. theLastAnon Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I'm fairly certain that I'm guilty of most of OP's list of suggested new rules.

    There's a lot to cover regarding the suggestions being made in this thread:

    1) I don't like the idea of creating a separate sub-forum for speculation mostly because I think it would create disjointed conversations by taking the speculative posts out of their original context.

    2) I do like the idea of allowing users (and mods) to somehow designate a post (via a check box like we have to post anonymously) as "speculation" or "tinfoil" or "full on moonbat shit" or whatever you want to call it. Have that post appear in a different color, font, whatever, and let it stay in the original thread. To me that eliminates the need for a separate "speculation" forum, allowing facts and speculation to work off of one another.

    3) The infraction system is frustrating not just because some people take it personally, but because sometimes there is a significant lack of consistency in what earns an infraction and which mods issue the infraction. We've all seen threads where there is a mod in them participating, and no infractions are handed out, only to come back the next day and find that another mod has come along and read the thread and handed out infractions or domed posts.

    (Note: I'm not particularly "blaming" mods for this. You have a fucking thankless task to do and there is no pleasing every user. Someone will always feel "targeted" under any infraction system you have in place.)

    The lack of consistency is the infraction system's great weakness, but I'm not sure there is anyway to fix that given the varying perspectives of mods on what actually qualifies as an infraction. It's also worth noting that the reasons given for infractions sometimes amount to nothing more than personal shots at the poster (who probably deserved it in most cases for being an ass), but it weakens the effectiveness of all moderators when the reason is isn't stated clearly. When the reason is stated with condescending sarcasm it only creates resentment to the entire system, even among those who were not infracted but click on to see why the other poster was "punished" only to see someone's idea of a funny joke for a reason.

    I'm not aiming this at any particular mod, but if until this moment you thought I did mean you, well...

    4) Having said all of that, there are of course some blatantly obvious reasons for a poster to be infracted or banned, etc. As I said, it's a fine line to walk for the mods. Perhaps a short list of actions that would generate an automatic 1 week ban, 1 month ban or lifetime ban. Clear-cut bad behavior that can't be questioned.

    Sorry for the tl;dr. Hope someone does read it though.

    5) You won't stop people from overuse of big pharma jokes, bad grammar, tiny davey references, overused memes or tinfoil rantings. It doesn't matter to me if you reply to any of my posts and point out that it's an overused joke/meme/etc. and even offer a better, more timely or funny alternative. I over use "moar" and "liek" to be certain....if that annoys some of you that's unfortunate.

    Not mentioned so far: Letting someone continually and intentionally "troll" to poke holes in arguments is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as said person doesn't make it personal or demeaning when crushing a poster's point in an avalanche of logic and facts. I think it's a great thing to have that occur in every thread (and it seems we need it now more than ever).

    What about creating a permanent account name for that purpose and rotating it among various posters on a weekly/monthly basis (and done so anonymously). We all know that's the purpose of the poster, we know it's not the same person so it's not personal....There are some obvious choices that stand out for this role.

    I'm not sure if that's a good idea or absolute fail.
  40. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I'm sorry, but when I read "A humble proposal.", my mind went off into a place where I was with those hot women from Glee who appeared in GQ, especially that brunette whose name and character name I can't remember without resorting to the IMDb because I don't watch the show. What's this thread about anyway?

    Also, isn't it amazing how psychotic the Co$ is, and how cheap our benevolent Marcabian overlords are with their Big Pharma checks? I barely got any coin for protesting. I think it's funny that a dwarf like Miscavige hits people with his tiny fists of fury. I heard Tom Cruise is going to reprise Ned Beatty's role in Deliverance, and John Ravolta will be sodomizing him as Cruise discusses the bridge to total freedumb. If only I could start a thread like this where I can troll Proxima and Rockyj. Lulz!

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