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A humble proposal.

Discussion in 'Support Questions' started by Anonymous, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. Anonxmous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Hmm, Skep banned? And not even time-out'ed?

    I'm busy studying for exams at the moment, so not enough time to go through everything and think it through right now; but I might have to quit WWP.

    ---

    EDIT: But I can't, 'cos this is the organisational hub, and I still want to pursue the ultimate, slow-burning lulz of watching the cult crumple and burn and cry... But I'm fucked off, and sad. In just a few days (maybe hours), while I was mostly away, the Sparrow thread went to shit without any site action. It's that kind of crap that needs sorting, whatever this was, was poor poor site forum administration. On one hand, the 'mild' crap that actually wrecks the forums gets totally ignored, and on the other, an insightful, accurate, long-standing, and witty commentator gets the nuclear option, without (afaik) leaving behind a trail of warnings or infractions. Something is bust, and it's not anything that member suggestions or contributions can resolve.

    But I'll make one anyway - no initial user ban should be for more than a few days. Permanent bans for contributing users should be eliminated.

    ---

    EDIT2:
    Utterly - the issue is not Skep.
  2. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Join Date 11-18-2009
    Total Posts 1,558
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I entirely agree with skeptic's points about

    I'm a huge fan of the concept of "mods as janitors". Beginning to judge the content of a post beyond of what is absolutely necessary, i.e. illegal stuff or possibly a very basic code of conduct, means assuming a position of leadership and power. It's bad enough it's a necessity to have mods and admins, which means administrative power. That's why it is so important to have good mods. But when you also begin to give out judgement calls about the content of posts then you become a kind of government with a claim to owning the truth -which isn't the best kind of government- and indirectly say that your opinion matters more because you are a mod, even if you were to have the best of intentions and capabilities. Also, what is considered thought provoking for one person may be self-evident for the next and obviously wrong for another. For these reasons I wholeheartedly agree with skeptic on that point. While an infraction and banning system of some kind may be necessary, the less there is of it, the better.
  4. da5id Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Skeptic is one of my favorite people, and I agree with the decision to ban him. At least for now. No one is above moderation (as some of you will recall, I even banned sue for a short period) and being awesome doesn't mean you don't have to respect the wishes of the staff.

    He was asked politely to adjust some things, he elected not to. End of story.
  5. sue Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Skeptic1337 has had three previous timeouts and 35 infractions, most of them for being unnecessarily cynical and condescending. If you are going to quit WWP over that, it is entirely your call.

    How much time has it taken you to complain about the sparrow thread being derailed and trolled? Did it take you less time than it would have taken you to report it?

    Do you expect us to police every thread? Tell me where do we get the time to do that between, being called into local drama, flame and troll threads, between being threatened with legal action because we remain neutral to other peoples drama whilst trying to mediate between two parties. Most of what mods read is drama upon drama upon drama, we do not have the luxury of opting out like you do.

    I try to every other month have a discussion similar to this one, polling and feeling where the community is at, if there are any serious problems. I also, as a relief try and steer those discussions into some form of semi intelligent debate. Threads like this are amongst the few we get to see and part take in without being called to intervene and judge.

    For some reason, many people think they are unique little snowflakes, that are the only ones mocking mods whenever they see them. The fact is, that is what we are subjected to all and every day. Adding insult to injury whenever someone draws the last straw we are told to grow a thicker skin and repeat for the hundred thousand time "guys be nice".

    The sentiment of pulling the site offline is all to familiar, but out of principle that wont happen. But i'll be damned if it at some point doesn't get to the forums being locked from posting.

    You lack the moderator perspective, mostly the downsides and concessions made to keep this place running.
  6. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Was intended as a serious suggestion. Seems to have been drowned in the noise.
  7. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Hai mods maybe next time when polling the user base,maybe focus on one forum issue instead of trying to resolve everything at once.
  8. da5id Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    So very much of chanology can be summed up as follows.

    For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Those are certainly valid concerns but I think you might be drawing a false distinction between being a janitor and having a modocracy. If you're a janitor, it's pretty easy to determine if something needs to be cleaned up. If it stinks like shit, clean it up (and I by no means intend to diminish the job that janitors do- I'm an academic and I'd be lying if I said that I contribute more to society than your average janitor). But being a janitor of posts is trickier. Because what might smell like shit to one person might smell like roses to another. I would argue that in deciding to remove posts, shut down threads, ect, mods aren't necessairly saying that their opinions matter more or forcing the community to bend to their collective will. They're trying to enforce the guidelines and rules upon which the community has agreed in order to keep things running smoothly and to keep things relatively civil.

    Now obviously the mods are human and their own biases will color their decisions. That's just the nature of the beast and there's no way around it. But I think that if guidelines are laid out as clearly as possible, and if the mods are transparent in their decision making with both each other and the larger community, hopefully we can have enough different points of views and personalities to balance out the biases we as individuals all have. Compare the approach of a mod like Hicks to a mod like Miranda. Two very different styles and motivations. And because of their biases they fuck up. But they also balance one another out and from having spoken with both of them I know them to be reasonable and willing to admit their mistakes.

    But getting back to the original point, I think mods can make judgment calls and do what they think is best without unduly imposing their will upon the community. But transpearancy is the key.
  10. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    P.S. I would also add that if you think the moderation here is heavy handed or obtrusive, I can only surmise that you haven't spent much time at moderated online communities.
  11. da5id Administrator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Also, I'd like to remind those of you that might be feeling offended at the moment to take a second to read the Forum Rules again. Specifically the very top part.


  12. OhSah Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    in this thread, we start drama about moderators abusing people, not caring about our hurt feelings and not having the facts over someone like Skeptic whose obviously a butter eating basement troll.
  13. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Very good points. I do think the mods at this site in general are doing a really good job, better than I could. But I still agree with the argument against adding an option of rewarding users. It would be a step towards a wrong kind of structure imho.
  14. OhSah Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    This isn't fucking World of Warcraft, you don't necessarily need to reward people for successfully participating in content. That's all I have to say ...
  15. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I agree that the mods do an excellent job at their duties and tasks. We must remember that they are human too and will make mistakes.

    However, I do not agree with the fact that there should be an unbanning amnesty period. I say this because of this simple fact: They were banned for a reason. It doesn't matter what "flavor" they brought here or ideas - They did something that was deemed necessary to remove them from this community. For example: Skeptic was hit 35 or so times with infractions, told numerous times to stop/adjust, and was domelocked for a spell. In my eyes, that was more than fair enough time to learn and correct. However, Skeptic didn't and was banned.

    I said it before and I'll say it again since it needs to be emphasized: This site cannot and should not be 4Chan 2.0 and neither should chanology. If it does become that way, new blood both young and old will not understand what is going on and may not get involved because of all the confusion. Also, it may paint our actions, IMO, in a bad light due to the notorious nature of 4Chan. That is not to say we can't have fun here, but we do need to have some distinction between Chanology and 4Chan.
  16. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    OK, you be the People's Front of Judea, I'll be the Judean People's Front.

    YouTube - The People's Front

    I absolutely 100% guarantee you that no-one outside of Anonymous, WWP, 4chan, Chanology, or whatever we are this week, gives even the slightest little bit of a fuck about the distinction between Chanology and 4Chan.

    Vigorous masturbation would be a much more effective way of advancing towards our goals (that Scientology thing, remember?) than working on the distinction between Chanology, WWP and 4Chan.
  17. Miranda Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    It hasn't been forgotten. It's been added to the list, which I'll update again eventually.
  18. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    ^
    case in point
  19. Re: A humble proposal.

    It would be good to find a win win here. I know its possible. I can feel it. I think we need to think outside the box.
  20. Miranda Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Having been both a mod and a janitor, here's the comparison: Being a janitor is wonderful. You're all alone in an empty building at night, polishing things up. The only bad part is scraping chewing gum off the bottom of lecture hall chairs for 7 hours on Saturdays. Being a mod is interesting, especially discussing and working on various projects. Such as this thread. The public part is surprisingly traumatic at first. Later it downgrades to merely dramatic and eventually to semi-absurd with good moments. At times I've considered asking to opt out of giving infractions. Unlike custodial work, it's bafflingly hard, I'm not great at it, and you get kicked around a lot. But it's a necessary part of cleaning up.

    I don't really care whether we get to give out rewards or not--in agreeing with that point I was expressing a plaintive wish for less strife. But reality is what it is.
  21. Re: A humble proposal.

    Maybe if we find something everyone agrees on then we have a good starting point?

    Whats the one thing we can say why we are here?
  22. OhSah Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    To make long time wasting threads discussing how we dislike things, feel they're unfair or how moderators who volunteer their fucking life and time to answering questions, keeping people safe and whatever else are shit bags. This is the conclusion I have come to, that ninety percent of the discussion here is just a waste of fucking time. Let's leak, let's raid, let's party but let's not forget - war with Scientology, not with moderators (all two or three active ones of that exist here).
  23. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.



    I will not post dox due to namefagging, etc., but this is not true on one very important front. Marty and/or no exes were involved in a significant win.
  24. Re: A humble proposal.

    So could you broaden that statement for all members so it becomes more... universal?
  25. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Offering suggestions is good, as is discourse on what works and what doesn't on teams, forums, and even off the net in businesses, clubs, corporations, etc. Ultimately, however, if you don't own, admin, or mod this site and you don't like what's going on here, then you have the choice to either deal with it or go create your own forum, designing and running it in the way you deem appropriate.


    I've been on this site (including the dome) for as long as some of you and much longer than many of you. I was extremely sorry to see Skeptic permabanned because when he chose to, he came up with good (and sometimes surprisingly great) ideas and insight, plus I found him to be really funny on occasion. I saw him weather serious OSA accusations more than once and I think he handled those things well. That said, I didn't have to moderate him and this isn't my site. So, really, it's none of my business beyond expressing my disappointment that he's gone. Disappointment, but not necessarily disagreement, in the decision (from my personal opinion).


    I am concerned that posters who are very intelligent (such as Skeptic) and brave/strong/stubborn/whatever enough to confront some posters are becoming significantly few and far between on wwp. (I am referring to the kind of srsbidness posters who are either too new, too intellectually challenged - sorry, but it's true-, too cultified, etc. to make sense. I am not talking about mods, admins, or even trolls. Skeptic was one who could cut through that bullshit with ease. Did he do it in a polite manner? Not always. But, sometimes when you're too nice, those who need to get the message don't/can't.


    Just my 2 cents. Anyway, carry on.
  26. Re: A humble proposal.

    I agree with you. I didn't really get into all this political stuff when i first came here. I just came here to fight the cult of Scientology under the pretense of being anonymous and things are going in a direction where i don't feel comfortable and not what i signed up for. Most of my fight is beyond these boards anyway and i can catch up on this as a guest.If anyone in the future starts a forum which has some marcab principals, i'll be there. As such i would ask the mods to permaban me and delete all my personal information off the servers if possible.

    Mods, thanks for your time. You have done a great job.Sue thanks for teaching me about short sentences. Sorry for being a pain in the arse. Fellow protesters thanks for sharing many fine times. People who just attack people all the time and scifi trolls: Fuck You. :)

    Do it faggots.
  27. RightOn Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Do not agree with this post.
    Would not work for threads that are on going projects.
  28. Fuckeye Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Something we can all agree on: You're an idiot.

    Now what?
  29. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.


    Why quit?
  30. Re: A humble proposal.

    Please don't quit entirely. I, for one, appreciate your contributions.

    While skep often presented a unique counterpoint his focus on intentionally causing derision is ultimately what got him banned after, as sue said, multiple attempts at interventions. I am certainly one to stand on principle but I don't think this is an appropriate issue.

    Transparency is something that I think we can all agree we are quite lacking here. I will fully admit that ideally staff should have more public engagement, or at least public notice, about the decisions we make if at all possible. You have to understand though; the lack of transparency isn't, in my case at least and I suspect most everyone else, a lack of will to be transparent in our decision making process as much as it is an indicator of the incredible amount of time we would have to spend to compose well thought out posts explaining everything.
  31. OhSah Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I drew a cartoon of you, here it is. Hope you like it.

    View attachment air-smug-self-importance-and-french-fries-actually
  32. sheeple Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Could users with ignore lists be given the opportunity to check a box to display a single hidden message without having to remove and reinstall the poster from their ignore lists?

    When the thread of thought seems disjointed, and you have hidden posts, it's presently a bit of a pain in the ass to check out if one of them was the missing link.

    If the opportunity to allow speculative posts to be ignored without adding the posters to the ignore lists, this could prevent threads going psychotic as Rufus mentioned ITT.
  33. OhSah Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    That's actually quite common, a lot of forums have that. I forget which one I browse that does - but all it does is display a flavor text that says: "You have chosen to ignore posts by <so/so> if you want to read this post, click the plus sign next to it to see it". Pretty sure the guys here can find an add-on from a vBulletin site that will do that. Or, just write their own - either way.
  34. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Maybe a thread or page for regular weekly or monthly updates on changes?
  35. OhSah Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Which results in less being done because you're constantly having to explain yourself to people whose mental quotient is around the same as that of an autistic six-teen year old who stares in the movie "The Mask".
  36. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I hate to be pedantic but didn't you mean stars? Yes one could stare at a movie but ...
  37. OhSah Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Apparently you are also autistic, please make next post with your forum name so we can call you things worse than autistic.
  38. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Am not. Why people think calling someone autistic is insulting is a mystery to me. Please explain.
  39. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    Cause Autistic people aren't people like us and should be sterilized ...haven't you ever mein kampf?
  40. Anonymous Member

    Re: A humble proposal.

    I'd add calling people autistic (as an insult) to the list of annoying things.

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