1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

It often comes down to who owns the privilege, and whether that person has waived that privilege. I believe in most states, it belongs to the patient and the psych can only assert on behalf of the patient. If the patient waives it somehow (possibly by asserting a claim which brings his/her mental state into issue), then the psych has no privilege to assert.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Tikk,

Any thoughts on whether scientology might be estopped from asserting privilege on the basis of decades of ignoring/contradicting said privilege, e.g., publicly releasing secrets from the PC folders of people who'd been fair gamed?

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

That's a good suggestion but there's a few basic problems with it. First, PC folders aren't the same thing as the confidentiality agreement posted above. Second, the culling of PC folders would have occurred to others, not Fowler, at least yet. Those problems might not be insurmountable, but you'd still need to show that it was the regular practice of Scientology to effectively waive such agreements by making their contents public when it suited their purposes. And while it's pretty obvious that they'll not hesitate to do that, proving it in court is difficult because (absent first-hand testimony by someone who witnessed its practice, like a Rathbun), you would have to prove that the CoS made public information about John Doe that they could have had no way else of knowing but for said information's inclusion in one's PC folder. That's difficult b/c it would probably end up involving deposing people you know who you might have also told, etc.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

I could be mistaken but I don't think the cult in Australia was actually put in a position where had to go as far as legally claiming priest-penitent privilege, although they might well have used it as an excuse to placate news media.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Rex Fowler did make an appearance in the front of the judge. From what little information I have gleaned from the Denver news, Mr.Fowler is aware of his surroundings and or actions and has legal representation etc.

His self inflicted medical condition appears to not be hendering the state moving forward on this case .

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

We could deduce that he wasn't a complete drooling immobile if he was considered that much of a potential physical risk to require shackles in court. Although it could be just standard procedure for any murdering scumbag regardless of condition.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

From the confidentially agreement a few posts back

"As such, Parishioner agrees to reimburse FSO and/or its licensor, for FSO's or its licensor's legal fees for each such breach by Parishioner. Further, Parishioner agrees to pay FSO and its licensor the total amount of $100,000 for each such breach by Parishioner. Parishioner understands that these provisions constitute a reimbursement, not a penalty, and that this agreement is a reasonable arrangement to make FSO and/or its licensor whole for the foreseeable losses that might result from any such breach. Parishioner further understands and acknowledges that each breach by Parishioner of this Agreement shall be treated as a seperate breach, including each subsequent unauthorized act, such as unauthorized possession, reproduction, dissemination, preparation of derivative works, and/or use or disclosure of the information underlying or comprising the Advanced Technology by any third party (including third party disclosures to another individual or organization) which results, directly or indirectly, from Parishioners initial unauthorized use or
disclosure."

If there were any "confidential" docs in the briefcase, it looks like CoS will be attempting to get a good chunk of change from Rex, as well.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

It could be that there were no printed confidential materials in teh case just as G.Rex had indicated.

If there were session notes, those would be part of the pre-OT(PC) folder which is usually labeled "Confidential" with case level and "priest-penitent privileged" on the outside. So the "no confidential materials" seems to be either a lie, or there were no session notes, either. Whether the label of "privileged" would be honored by the local govt. is obviously subject to question.

It could be that the case contained some instructions to be followed (like the keys, safe deposit boxes, location of important docs etc.) after his death.

Not that he seemed to be acting particularly logical that day, but I would think that any OT papers/confessionals would have ended up in the shredder if he had any concern about anyone getting hold of them.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Similar to the legal assertions in Scientology's boilerplate NDAs, releases, and contracts, labeling something "Confidential" and "priest-penitent privileged" is mostly a bluff with little downside for them. As I note above, I think they're likely on decent footing with regard to any priest-penitent question, but I have no real idea what would happen in a courtroom, and neither do they, which is kind of my point.

I don't really know what to think about Fowler's assertion that whatever was in the briefcase wasn't 'confidential,' because to do so requires you understand his frame of mind soon before he committed a murder, when he was not quite, as you point out, logical. The fact that both he and his wife were so fixated on the briefcase says a lot about Scientology's influence on them at this time, though. But the fact that the briefcase has become an issue at all speaks either of poor planning on Fowler's part if he didn't want Scientology dragged into it (he could have easily left the briefcase home, given it to a coworker, etc., but instead he draws all manner of attention to it which practically requires investigators account for it); or he intentionally drew attention to it because he wanted to drag Scientology in, for whatever reason.

Realize too that if Fowler, for whatever reason, waived his privilege to the session notes, Scientology's assertion of the privilege would become a lot weaker, although not necessarily non-existent. If it becomes an issue, I'd be shocked if they didn't try like hell to keep them out of evidence. It seems doubtful that his OT7 session notes would help or hurt Fowler, but who knows what beside Scientologese is in there.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Is it possible that by saying in writing it wasn't confidential that it could be argued that he waived any privilege?

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

That'd be a clever argument to raise. My initial sense would be that your privilege would not be so easily lost, especially as he's apparently in good enough health to waive it now if he likes, as opposed to then, prior to committing the murder. Remember that Scientology would probably step in and argue against admissibility too. And labeling something "not confidential" isn't the same thing as waiving your privilege, although there's definitely some overlap between the two, as attorney-client / physician / psych / priest-penitent privileges are deemed waived if communicated to a third party. Labeling something 'not confidential' doesn't communicate its contents to a third party, but it increases the likelihood.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

List of open questions, as mentioned on the wiki page:

About the company:

• Why did Tom Ciancio choose to work for s scientologist company?
• What exactly is unusual - in its management own words - in this company?

About the shooting:

• Why did Tom Ciancio try to see Ubaldo Ciminieri when arriving in the office?
• Why did Rex Fowler shoot Tom Ciancio?
• Why did Rex Fowler shoot himself?

About the investigation:

• Was Laura Zaspel questioned about her email to Rex Fowler regarding Tom Ciancio?
• Has a warrant been requested to search the Fowler's home?
• Why did the police wait almost 24 hours before testing Rex Fowler's hands for powder residues?
• Why did the police wait five days to make a ATF search for the weapon ?
• What did happen between January 6 (last investigation) and 23 (request for a warrant to arrest)?

About the affidavit:

• Why does it not mention that somebody called 911 mentioning a "disgruntled ex-employee", as reported by the media?
• Why does it not mention Suzy Gaut among the people Steven Blatt warned inside the office?
• Why does it not mention that Rex Fowler was handcuffed before entering the ambulance, as reported by the media?

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

There's nothing said about his health other than he's in scrubs. Reports didn't mention whether or not he was able to speak or think, for example. All reports claimed he appeared, but I found no further inferences as to his condition.

So it's possible that he may not be in a condition to re-state privilege. Don't know yet.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Re Ubaldo Ciminieri:

We know that he and his wife socialized with Tom and his wife. December 30 was also his birthday, which he celebrated with his wife that evening. It was Tom's final visit to the office, and he could have been doing nothing more than saying goodbye to a colleague and wishing him Happy Birthday and Happy New Year.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

I believe that if he was able to attend the hearing and the issue of his ability to understand the charges against him was not raised, he at least had/has such an ability.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

As far as COanon can tell, UB is just about if not the only other non-scilon on the Fowler staff. (even if he IS a convicted and registered sex offender that seems a little too interested in Fowler Software's relationship with OpenWorld Learning center)

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

If he was healthy and physically able enough to attend the hearing, its likely that his cognitive and volitional ability are at least minimally sufficient. It is not unheard of for a patient/suspect to require more medical attention than available in a courtroom- and to be "brought in" to "attend" by telepresence.

The converse- a medically stable person with grossly impaired mental function- would never see the inside of a courtroom [vegetables can't sit in a chair, they need IV food, etc]. If Rex can sit in a chair, can make eye contact, and nod or shake his head in response to questions, he's probably closer to mentally "competent" than not.

If the issue of "ability to understand the charges" wasn't even raised- then it's probably fairly unambiguous. I would STILL expect his defense to raise the point at some future date, that he might not have been competent at this last appearance.

but ianal

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

I'm curious-
someone with gross injuries as Rex suffers might well be kept on high levels of narcotic pain meds, for his own comfort (consistent with medical practice).

How do the courts deal with the issue of a respondent who may not be "fully able to understand or deal with charges against him" due to pain management? Its not a simple question, and it would seem to me there would be a large grey area- but it must come up often enough that the court system has found a way to deal with it.

Rex can't be the first failed an-hero brought up on a murder rap.
(he might not be in great pain- so the previous may not even apply to him at all. But it seems within the range of reasonable possibilities.)

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

He had a face when he walked out of the building bleeding and he has a face now too, it just tastes like entheta and gunpowder.

No reason to think he was disfigured, mental zombie is another question.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Yes, and mental zombies are covered by due process, so those of you who think because he was in the courtroom he has no cognitive issues are making assumptions that may prove to be incorrect.

To those of you who have suggested that if he was cognitively dysfunctional they would've put him on camera...well, to do so would have likely meant he was even more cognitively aware than his being physically present in the courtroom...he'd have to be able to understand and communicate into a camera away from the courtroom and out of the presence of his attorney. That requires much more cognitive ability than sitting next to his attorney and physically in the environment where the proceedings are taking place.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

They can't try him when he can't comprehend what is going on and aid in his defense. They can wait until he gets fit enough, and then try him.

Might never happen, of course, if he blew half his brains out.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

You would probably be surprised that such injuries are not all that painful especially after a few days. Subsequent possible infection could increase discomfort though.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Bullet went through the middle of his skull... and missed his brain by 3 ft.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Either way wouldn't surprise me, but the face has a lot of nerve endings, and I would imagine soft tissue between chin and forehead heals slowly. Not real sure what path the bullet took, so pointless speculation is pointless.

thanks

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

The part of the brain he most likely damaged doesn't contain much that can be harmed. I'm not a doctor, but I highly doubt he will have any lasting brain damage from the bullet wound.

Brain damage from being in the cult is another story.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

There's often footage of people entering/exiting courtrooms and I was surprised to find no such footage or photos of Fowler. I wasn't expecting a courtroom cam.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Right. I meant some had speculated he'd be on camera offsite via satellite, like from the hospital, if he wasn't healed.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Not a doctor either, but while the frontal lobes contain a LOT of tissue that can be harmed- they're also less specialized than the hindbrain and adjacent structures; so functional impairment would be harder to identify but much less likely to be debilitating.

If the bullet didn't touch brainz, and didn't skim near enough to cause swelling/bleeding in brainz = no damage.

If the bullet grazed brainz or poked a hole through them = definite drain bamage. While it may affect his cognition, it might not leave any lasting functional deficit (as the non-damaged parts learn to compensate).

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

I haven't looked back to study this in detail, but my memory/impression was that Fowler was receiving treatment and the police could not get to him. His hands were bagged until the police did their tests, though, so the delay seems inconsequential.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Damage to the frontal lobes:

Mental flexibility and spontaneity are impaired, but IQ is not reduced.
Talking may increase or decrease dramatically.
Perceptions regarding risk-taking and rule-abiding are impaired.
Socialization can diminish or increase.
Orbital frontal lobe damage can result in peculiar sexual habits.
Dorsolateral frontal lobe damage reduces sexual interest.
Creativity is diminished or increased as well as problem solving skills.
Distraction occurs more frequently.
Loss of smell and/or taste.


Also:

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

ZOMG!!11! whats wrong with you peoplez?
the brain is a SHOCK ABSORBER, remember?
He can live without a brain!

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

Scientology won't release information from personal files? No recent examples to help persuade the release of Rex's files? Ask Aaron.

http://forums.whyweprotest.net/123-...n-vs-scilon-sue-hunt-vro-60072/2/#post1145507

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do.

The advances in the extreme anxiety and emotional stress production technologies found in coercive persuasion supersede old style coercion that focuses on pain, torture, drugs, or threat in that these older systems do not change attitude so that subjects follow orders "willingly." Coercive persuasion changes both attitude and behavior, not just behavior.

margaret singer,
Freeminds.org - How Thought Reform Works

scientology, use of kubark,
L Ron Hubbard Examples scientology's Use of the Confusion Technique

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

No! Wait! Don't go! Tell us more about this "Scientology".

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

lmao!

Scientology> "It's jerks, and it hoops people!"

Bedtime story @ 11:00, now back to our regularly scheduled program.

XP

Catholic.org - Randy Sly Article about Denver Murder

Special Report: Denver murder may be linked to Scientology - Catholic Online

If you haven't dropped in to make a comment, do eet pl0x.

Re: Catholic.org - Randy Sly Article about Denver Murder

I love this. Randy Sly, Catholics ... Catnarok is nigh.

Re: Catholics Online Article Scientology & Fowler Murder

Love it. These Catholics are certainly going after scientology hard.

Re: 1st degree Murder - Rev. William Rex Fowler Scientology Minister Charged

That's a very very good article.

Re: Catholic.org - Randy Sly Article about Denver Murder

That IS a good article.

The Catholics are probably pissed that they did the right thing (eventually) after the scandals over pedophile priests being bounced from parish to parish and faced the music and the bad P.R., whereas Scientology, which does equally horrible things, keeps slithering back under its rock and somehow evading responsibility for decades of human rights abuses.

Can't really blame them.

Also, good Catholic people were justifiably appalled when the scandals were the hot news, and most were just as hard on their co-religionists as the legal system and media were.

Compare this reaction to that of the average Scientologist, who will deny or defend to the death all the horrible things done by many of their fellow cultists, or which are actually Scientology policy.