Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by CommunicatorIC, Sep 26, 2015.
Category: David Minkoff
Category: Sue Minkoff
A declaratory judgement is a ruling from a court on some situation or set or circumstances that clarifies legal status. Its me asking the court to rule on whether the injunction applies to me or not.
ahh thanks again
If the court finds that the injunction applies to you then you should be able to challenge it at that point methinks.
Yep. The second they file something asserting that I'm covered by the injunction, I have instant standing to ask the judge to dissolve the injunction. Something tells me, though, that despite all their protestations that the injunction applies to me they won't do that. And you better believe I'll use the fact that they haven't filed anything against them.
If the court finds the injunction does not apply to you, will that set precedence? Will it mean the injunction do not apply to e.g. AmaX?
His wife owns a real estate company, and is active in the St. Petersberg community, but no signs of crisscross with anything Scientological.
I think you have Scientology in a Catch-22. They want the injunction to be applied to you so you have to stay 10 feet away from Scientologists, etc. etc. BUT if they get the courts to say yes, the injunction applies to Xander, then Scientology just instantly gave you legal status to fight the injunction. I like it!
but they haven't stayed 10ft away from him either
Oh, I love this song so much.
Exactly. I asked Pope if Scientology plans on filing for damages against me. He said he'd get me answer next week. My money says they won't for precisely this reason. We'll see though.
I have to share this with you guys. So I talked to Pope. He basically said, "Well, they could file for fees against you for the motion to intervene. And they could file for fees against you if you file for declaratory. Or they could file to have the injunction cover you. Or file for a new injunction altogether." In other words, they're not doing anything. He kept saying their favored outcome would be that I follow the restrictions of the injunction. I in turn asked why I would follow an injunction that doesn't apply to me. He didn't have an answer for that. And his response when I asked why wouldn't his client want to have a court rule on the applicability of the injunction to me? "Well, they're not as litigious as you think they are."
The Scientology corporation's lawyer just admitted that he knows that the injunction could never be made to apply to you.
Oh Wally, you are such a nertz!
ok, now I am confused. How can they file to have that injunction include you or file a new one? How would they ever win that?
You just can't file injunctions (and win) just because someone is exercising their rights on a public sidewalk.
It's pretty obvious DM wants to keep the injunction around to confuse the PD and harass people. If they actually file anything, I suspect they know the odds are pretty good it gets kicked into the dumpster. And the odds of getting a new injunction are probably buried somewhere down in the Mariana's trench.
Email sent to all CPD officers:
The Honorable Thomas E. Penick, Jr., Circuit Judge, issued a Permanent Injunction on July 21, 2001 involving members of the Church of Scientology and those persons “in actual concert or participation” with them. The Injunction also applied to the members of the Lisa McPherson Trust and those persons “in actual concert or participation” with them. In particular, the following members of the Lisa McPherson Trust were named in the Injunction: Jesse Prince, Grady Ward, Stacy Brooks, Jeff Jacobson, Patricia Greenway, Peter Alexander, Mark Bunker, Tony Bezazian, and Robert Minton. The Injunction is still in effect until further order of the Court.
The Injunction contains diagrams of 10 Church of Scientology properties that are listed in Exhibit A-1, attached to the Injunction, that are color coded to depict those BLUE areas where the above-named members of the Lisa McPherson Trust and those acting “in actual concert or participation” with them are prohibited by paragraph 2 of the Injunction from picketing, protesting, or demonstrating. Paragraph 2 of the Injunction also prohibits picketing, protesting, or demonstrating within 10 feet from the entrance or exit used on a daily basis at the 20 Church properties listed on Exhibit B, attached to the Injunction.
Robert Minton, who formed the Lisa McPherson Trust, died some time ago. Moreover, except for Mark Bunker, the other members of the trust appear no longer to be present in Clearwater 14 years after the Injunction was granted. However, the Church of Scientology has contacted CPD on numerous occasions, claiming that an individual named Alex Hageli, who has been in close proximity to Church property while exercising his First Amendment rights, is in violation of the Injunction because he is acting “in actual concert or participation” with Mark Bunker.
UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OBTAINS AN ORDER FROM THE COURT SPECIFICALLY FINDING THAT ALEX HAGELI IS SUBJECT TO THE INJUNCTION, CLEARWATER POLICE OFFICERS SHALL NOT IN ANY WAY INTERFER WITH MR. HAGELI’S RIGHT TO BE PRESENT ON THE PUBLICLY-OWNED SIDEWALKS NEAR CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY PROPERTY. THE COMMUNICATIONS CENTER AND CLEARWATER POLICE OFFICERS WILL IGNORE ANY REQUESTS BY REPRESENTATIVES OF THE CHURCH TO HAVE CLEARWATER POLICE OFFICERS TAKE A REPORT ON MR. HAGELI SOLELY BECAUSE MR. HAGELI IS PRESENT ON OR PROTESTING ON THE PUBLICLY-OWNED SIDEWALKS NEAR CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY PROPERTY. MOREOVER, CLEARWATER POLICE OFFICERS WILL NOT RESPOND TO REPORTS OF ANY OTHER PERSONS WHO ARE EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS ON PUBLICLY-OWNED SIDEWALKS NEAR CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY PROPERTY UNLESS THERE IS AN ALLEGATION THAT A CRIME IS BEING COMMITTED OR THE PERSON IS SPECIFICALLY NAMED IN THE INJUNCTION.
wow! So it's more or less over?
So the cult's next move is to file false police reports or try to entrap Alex is some way? Like Antonio did to AMA?
Congrats! I will be toasting your achievement tonight, or at least drinking to it.
Can you tell us who authored the e-mail, and if there was a formal address? ("To the officers of the CPD:" or somesuch) Date/timestamp might also be interesting. I would LOL if it was around 2pm on a Thursday.
Way to go Xander! So I'm gonna guess the CWPD from now on, when Scientology whips out the injunction will say nope, show us a court order that the injunction applies to THIS person, no matter who it is. Of course, the names parties are still under it.
Who wrote the letter?
Were Wally Pope and the "security" people at Flag copied on the letter? Was there anying in there about possible charges if Flag continues making false complaints against protesters, and wasting CPD resources responding to them?
Darth - Would it be possible to scan the original and post it on Scribd, or as a downloadable .pdf someplace? Some folks over on TonyO's 'Underground Bunker' are wondering.
Darth Xander wins in Clearwater
By Tony Ortega, The Underground Bunker, November 14, 2015
Back in September, we told you that Alex ‘Darth Xander’ Hageli, an Illinois attorney, had filed a motion in Clearwater, Florida seeking to get the infamous Lisa McPherson Trust permanent injunction dissolved.
Hageli frequently flies to Florida and pickets outside Scientology’s facilities in Clearwater, and has produced some amazing video footage while he’s doing it. But repeatedly, he found himself being harassed by local police who thought they had the authority to remove Hageli from public spaces because of the terms of the injunction, which was finalized in 2001. The injunction, however, was meant to contain the two sides — Scientology and the Lisa McPherson Trust — who had been clashing in the late 1990s at protests. The LMT long ago ceased to exist, and Hageli had nothing to do with it or any of the people named in it.
He filed his motion hoping a local court would conclude that the injunction was no longer needed. That didn’t happen. However, the court did decide to send a message to the police of Clearwater that the injunction does not apply to Hageli, and they have to stop hassling him and let him demonstrate in public places. Here’s the language that was sent out in an email to local authorities:
Robert Minton, who formed the Lisa McPherson Trust, died some time ago. Moreover, except for Mark Bunker, the other members of the trust appear no longer to be present in Clearwater 14 years after the Injunction was granted. However, the Church of Scientology has contacted CPD on numerous occasions, claiming that an individual named Alex Hageli, who has been in close proximity to Church property while exercising his First Amendment rights, is in violation of the Injunction because he is acting “in actual concert or participation” with Mark Bunker.Until such time as the Church of Scientology obtains an order from the court specifically finding that Alex Hageli is subject to the injunction, Clearwater police officers shall not in any way interfere with Mr. Hageli’s right to be present on publicly-owned sidewalks near Church of Scientology property. The Communications Center and Clearwater police officers will ignore any requests by representatives of the church to have Clearwater police officers take a report on Mr. Hageli solely because Mr. Hageli is present on or protesting on publicly-owned sidewalks near Church of Scientology property moreover, Clearwater police officers will not respond to reports of any other persons who are exercising their First Amendment rights on publicly-owned sidewalks near Church of Scientology property unless there is an allegation that a crime is being committed or the person is specifically named in the injunction.
Source and comments:
Should that be Tory Bezazian?
Also, like Darth, unless they get a court order specifically adding her to the injunction it sounds like it pretty much blows away the 'cloud' amaX has been under since Flag Down.
Jupp, shows how thorough the "honourable" judge was when that thing was written.
Mr. Pope was cc'd on the email to me that contained that message, which I posted in full.
Its an email, not a formal letter or anything like that. So cut and paste is as good as it gets.
Yes sir, it does.
Okay. Any chance of a scan that includes the headers and addressees then? I think people are looking for something to carry at protests that will not be blown off as, "You typed that up yourself".
Oh I see. I'll work on that. Good point. I'll work on posting an imagine with the header showing it came from the chief of police.
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